Lucy Spy Ring & Rudolf Rössler in Lucerne.

Discussion in 'Top Secret' started by Owen, Jun 15, 2009.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just read about this in a book on Battle of Kursk .
    It says he ran a bookshop in Lucerne/Luzern.
    I'm off there in the summer holidays , anyone know where it was?
    (I have to see something WW2 related on holiday)
     
  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Owen,If I recollect correctly there was a British connection also but not an official one. Again, off the cuff, (it keeps the brain tested) there were two parallel sources to Stalin on the Kurst offensive, both derived from Ultra.

    One, officially from British intelligence, derived from the Betchley Park organisation to the Russians.The source of which could not be divulged and validated to the Russians for obvious reasons.

    The other was "leakage" from British intelligence and unknown to them which was fed to the Lucy cell who then fed it to Stalin.This validated the Wehrmacht plans for the Kusk offensive which Hitler hoped would inflict a severe set back for the Red Army.The offensive turned out to be a disaster for the Wehrmacht who from this set piece battle marked ongoing shrinkage in their occupation of Russian territory.

    Switzerland had an unusual role during the war where enemies would consult on neutral territory, certainly from the German side, in many cases without their master's approval.Similar to Portugal, Sweden and Spain,Switzerland was a halfway house for the control of spies and the coordination of intelligence.

    Have a good holiday.
     
  3. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Owen,
    once again T.N.A. does supply the answer if you can get there.

    KV 2/1406 and 1627 are Files that cover the subject of Rote Drei Spy Ring and Rudolph Roessler (Lucy)
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    if you can get there.

    That's the problem,Brian, I can't due to family commitments & work.

    Cheers for the link Tom, didn't find much myself this morning too busy.
     
  6. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    I understand Owen.

    Being retired does have it's advantages, as it does allow you to indulge yourself.


    Brian
     
  7. L J

    L J Senior Member

    Owen,If I recollect correctly there was a British connection also but not an official one. Again, off the cuff, (it keeps the brain tested) there were two parallel sources to Stalin on the Kurst offensive, both derived from Ultra.

    One, officially from British intelligence, derived from the Betchley Park organisation to the Russians.The source of which could not be divulged and validated to the Russians for obvious reasons.

    The other was "leakage" from British intelligence and unknown to them which was fed to the Lucy cell who then fed it to Stalin.This validated the Wehrmacht plans for the Kusk offensive which Hitler hoped would inflict a severe set back for the Red Army.The offensive turned out to be a disaster for the Wehrmacht who from this set piece battle marked ongoing shrinkage in their occupation of Russian territory.

    Switzerland had an unusual role during the war where enemies would consult on neutral territory, certainly from the German side, in many cases without their master's approval.Similar to Portugal, Sweden and Spain,Switzerland was a halfway house for the control of spies and the coordination of intelligence.

    Have a good holiday.
    I hope you don't bemieve these indian tales :most of the information of the so called Lucy spy ring was rubbish (for those able to read German:Werther hat nie gelebt-available on the web ),and the role of Bletchey Park was nihil :eek:nly an attempt (after all the scandals )of the British to claim 'the succes '
    There has been recently a Russian publishing a book (espionage stories are gol mines :D )claiming that the source of the Lucy spy ring was Bormann :lol::lol: ,remember Hitler's diaries :lol::lol:
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Forgot this thread, I'm sure I managed to work out where his bookshop was but when I got to Luzern I forgot to look for it.
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I hope you don't bemieve these indian tales :most of the information of the so called Lucy spy ring was rubbish (for those able to read German:Werther hat nie gelebt-available on the web ),and the role of Bletchey Park was nihil :eek:nly an attempt (after all the scandals )of the British to claim 'the succes '
    There has been recently a Russian publishing a book (espionage stories are gol mines :D )claiming that the source of the Lucy spy ring was Bormann :lol::lol: ,remember Hitler's diaries :lol::lol:

    I am willing to be better informed.Layout the reasoning and official sources.

    There has been a lot revealed about Bormann since 1945,mostly domestic regarding the management of the Obersazburg,the second seat of government and more importantly the running of the Third Reich,as it was affected by Bormann's self apppointed role as gatekeeper access to Hitler.
     
  10. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I am willing to be better informed.Layout the reasoning and official sources.

    There has been a lot revealed about Bormann since 1945,mostly domestic regarding the management of the Obersazburg,the second seat of government and more importantly the running of the Third Reich,as it was affected by Bormann's self apppointed role as gatekeeper access to Hitler.
    will start again (replay was gone ,to the Bermuda triangle ?:mad: )
    It's an old story 40 years old:
    we have P.Carrell,insinuating that a German officer had betrayed the plans of Citadelle (I have seen the name of von Heydebreck )
    we have R.Gehlen,fired as BND chief (his services were an annexe of the KGB :D )and writing his memoirs:to increase the selling ,he was blathering that Bormann was a Russian spy :lol:
    we have some retired agents of Bletchey Park,telling that Ultra was responsible for the discovery of the plans and that the German defeat at Kursk was due to the British :D
    we have Tammann,claiming that the chief traitor was general Fellgiebel (chief transmissions of the Wehrmacht )who was sending a courier with the plans to Switserland (highly improbable IMVHO :))
    we hava at last and at least :lol:L.Kilzer (Pulitzer price winner :lol: )slavering that the responsible was Bormann :lol:
    Thus we have since 40 years a lot of rubbish and BS,but not even the beginning of a proof ,and it will continue:there will be always stupidos to waste their money on this rubbish .
     
  11. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    will start again (replay was gone ,to the Bermuda triangle ?:mad: )
    It's an old story 40 years old:
    we have P.Carrell,insinuating that a German officer had betrayed the plans of Citadelle (I have seen the name of von Heydebreck )
    we have R.Gehlen,fired as BND chief (his services were an annexe of the KGB :D )and writing his memoirs:to increase the selling ,he was blathering that Bormann was a Russian spy :lol:
    we have some retired agents of Bletchey Park,telling that Ultra was responsible for the discovery of the plans and that the German defeat at Kursk was due to the British :D
    we have Tammann,claiming that the chief traitor was general Fellgiebel (chief transmissions of the Wehrmacht )who was sending a courier with the plans to Switserland (highly improbable IMVHO :))
    we hava at last and at least :lol:L.Kilzer (Pulitzer price winner :lol: )slavering that the responsible was Bormann :lol:
    Thus we have since 40 years a lot of rubbish and BS,but not even the beginning of a proof ,and it will continue:there will be always stupidos to waste their money on this rubbish .

    Yes but what is your assessment of this era of history.

    We can start off by looking at the intelligence on the Kurst offensive.
     
  12. L J

    L J Senior Member

    The log in function is totally rebellious,I typed my reply,but could not post it,because I was no more logged in !!!
    Will try later .
     
  13. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    The log in function is totally rebellious,I typed my reply,but could not post it,because I was no more logged in !!!
    Will try later .

    Tick the box beside the login - that way you'll stay logged in, otherwise you won't. I also advice ctrl+c while typing so it won't all get lost when a site decides to screw up.
     
  14. L J

    L J Senior Member

    The Red Army had informations on Citadelle :Kursk was a logical place to cut of the saillant,there was radio interception,aircraft observatin,information from partisans .

    But I have yet to see some proof that the information came from the Lucy Spyring and that Rossler got his information from a traitor in the OKW.Besides:the Eastfront depending from the OKH and not the OKW and the OKH having only a small detachement in Rastenburg,probably the detailed plans were elaborated at Zossen (war headquarters of the OKH ).

    About Roessler :we do not know nothing :he was a Bavarian,16 years old,when WW I started . When did he volunteer or was called up ? Did he became an officer ? In which unit did he serve ? The theory that he had con netions with German officers is highly improbable .
    After the war he became a civilian,when did he leave Germany ? If he had contacts in Germany,how did they join each other ? When did he become a Soviet agent ?How could he pass information on the Soviets,without the Swiss Fremdenpolizei,that kept (and keeps )a suspicious eye on foreigners,having any knowledge ?How did he contact the Soviets,or were the Soviets contacting him ?

    If there was a traitor in the OKW-OKH ,how did he know of the existence of Roessler ?How could he pass information to Roessler (in war time )?Was the traitor a trained radio operator? He had to encode the detailed plans(hundred of pages)and a radiomessage that took ten minutes would be suicidal (the German funkabwehr was efficient ).And where were the massages transmitted ? In Hitler's headquarters ????

    Last (and very important )question,that,IMVHO,totally debunks the Lucy Spyring myth :if there was such spyring,why was it not passing informations in 194O,when the Germans were attacking in the West,or in 1941,on Barbarossa and the German attack on Kiev,or in 1942 on Fall Blau and was it actif after Citadelle ? If not ,why ?
    It's as if it was suddenly appearing out of the blue .
     
  15. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    During the war and for some time after,the activities of British intelligence and its evolvement into a specially effective weapon of war was a guarded secret from the British public and subject to the Official Secret Acts.This was to change when, in 1972,John Mastermann,without official sanction, published his "XX Committee" which later was to become the official chronicle and account of the double cross principle and counter operation weapon used against the German Abwehr throughout the war.

    In 1977, Anthony Cave Brown wetted the public aptitite by his publication "Bodyguard of Lies" but while the publication was interesting from an historical point of view,it did not reveal the deeper workings of British Intelligence which had widened to include alliance with the US as an ally and to a certain extent,intelligence relationships with the Soviet Union.More important, Ultra, "the goose that laid the golden eggs and never cattled",ie the use of Ultra intelligence information against Germany was not able to be revealed in much depth.

    However,an extensive insight and understanding was made available to the public from 1979 to 1990 when via the HMSO,Harry Hinsley,himself an Ultra practitioner was involved in the publishing of five volumes, entitled, "British Intelligence in the Second World War".These volumes are regarded as being the nearest to what is the official history of British Intelligence during the Second World War and reveal Ultra intelligence to a degree not made available in the public domain before.

    Then in 1990 after the fall of the Soviet Union, a previous defector to the West and a British penitration agent,Oleg Gordievsky, along with the distinguished historian Christopher Andrew published "KGB The Inside Story" which shone further light on the intelligence activities during the Second World War among other eras.

    From these publications it should be possible to look deeper at the intelligence on Kursk and more,both sent and received officially and unofficially.
     
    L J likes this.
  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Posted a further comment on this subject, working off line and on "dial up"after locating the subject via "find all posts by Harry Ree"

    Constructed post

    Went on line via "connect" hoping to post

    ww2talk.com plaque indicated that I had signed on but I could not post.

    Instructed to turn back a page for some reason I cannot understand and then lost the post.

    Where did I go wrong?.
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Where did I go wrong?.
    I've no idea Harry. Hopefully just a temporary glitch, give me a shout if you get it again. Offline composition's not a method of posting I'm familiar with so I'd have to try it myself to see what happens.

    The log in function is totally rebellious,I typed my reply,but could not post it,because I was no more logged in !!!
    Will try later .
    Just noticed this LJ.
    Assuming you've clicked the 'keep me logged on' box, the usual reason for being logged off is a browser setting relating to cookies or security at the User's end. Hope it's behaving itself now.

    ~A
     
  18. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The Red Army had informations on Citadelle :Kursk was a logical place to cut of the saillant,there was radio interception,aircraft observatin,information from partisans .

    But I have yet to see some proof that the information came from the Lucy Spyring and that Rossler got his information from a traitor in the OKW.Besides:the Eastfront depending from the OKH and not the OKW and the OKH having only a small detachement in Rastenburg,probably the detailed plans were elaborated at Zossen (war headquarters of the OKH ).

    About Roessler :we do not know nothing :he was a Bavarian,16 years old,when WW I started . When did he volunteer or was called up ? Did he became an officer ? In which unit did he serve ? The theory that he had con netions with German officers is highly improbable .
    After the war he became a civilian,when did he leave Germany ? If he had contacts in Germany,how did they join each other ? When did he become a Soviet agent ?How could he pass information on the Soviets,without the Swiss Fremdenpolizei,that kept (and keeps )a suspicious eye on foreigners,having any knowledge ?How did he contact the Soviets,or were the Soviets contacting him ?

    If there was a traitor in the OKW-OKH ,how did he know of the existence of Roessler ?How could he pass information to Roessler (in war time )?Was the traitor a trained radio operator? He had to encode the detailed plans(hundred of pages)and a radiomessage that took ten minutes would be suicidal (the German funkabwehr was efficient ).And where were the massages transmitted ? In Hitler's headquarters ????

    Last (and very important )question,that,IMVHO,totally debunks the Lucy Spyring myth :if there was such spyring,why was it not passing informations in 194O,when the Germans were attacking in the West,or in 1941,on Barbarossa and the German attack on Kiev,or in 1942 on Fall Blau and was it actif after Citadelle ? If not ,why ?the
    It's as if it was suddenly appearing out of the blue .

    Looking at my post regarding the information from publications mentioned and from other traceable sources.

    The fundamental intelligence came from Ultra via the British Military Mission in Moscow and was the official route.However while this was taking place,intelligence was being passed to the Russian Embassy in London by John Cairncross who was later unmasked as the Cambridge Spy Ring "5th man".

    Cairncross, a brilliant intellectual and scholar had been a communist from 1936 while at Cambridge and had been recruited into the Cambridge Spy Ring. In March 1942, Cairncross was appointed at Bletchley Park GC & CS with responsibility of analysing Luftwaffe Ultra intercepts.On taking up his position at B.P,apparently Cairncross was appalled that Russia was not fully informed of the Ultra operations and its intelligence.Cairncross passed hundreds of intercepted and decrypted enemy signals.This intelligence indicating the disposition of Lufwaffe forces in the area which was to be the Kursk salient.17 airfields were identified and pre-emptive strikes were carried out against these airfields and aircraft in early May 1943,which severely reduced the capability of the Luftwaffe to support the Wehrmacht in the forthcoming clash. From Ultra intelligence, the Russians were then able to put in place,plans to counter the German offensive by focusing on German signal intelligence,air photo reconnaissance,ground patrols and the interogation of POWs in the Kursk sector.Without doubt the early warning was successful and led to the largest defeat of the Wehrmacht in a pitched battle in the Second World War

    The official intelligence to the Russians omitted the Luftwaffe unit identities in what was the sanitised version in an effort to maximise the security of the source of Ultra intelligence.However Cairncross provided the texts of the intecepts together with the Lufwaffe unit identies and strengths.According to,Gordievsky,Syetanko,former head of the KGB's British desk,spoke of Cairncross with "awe", "admiration" and "respect",not least on account of the literally tons of documents he passed to Moscow.

    It has also be claimed that Cairncross passed the technical specification on the Tiger to the Russians.Most important being the type of armour and its thickness so much so that the Russians were able to manufacture the appropriate armour piercing shells.

    It has to be recorded that the Russians had captured several Enigma sets before Stalingrad and 26 during the battle for Staingrad and Russian military intelligence had improved from Stalingrad. but it has to be stressed that Russia was strongly thought not have an intelligence section such as that at Bletchley Park and did not possess the neccessary technical equipment and competence.

    There is evidence that the Germans had doubts regarding the security of the Enigma system. On 17 January 1943,even before the Stalingrad surrender, the Signals Division of the Wehrmacht High Command concluded that in several specific cases it was a certainty that the Russians had decrypted Enigma messages.After a number of improvements in cipher security, Enigma was delared "safe" as Harry Hinsley recorded in one of his lectures.

    It may be that Russian cryptanalysts were able to read Enigma traffic but not on a regular basis.Of course there were also a number of less complex Enigma machines and Cairncross has been accused of informing the Russians as Enigma improvements took place.

    As regards Hitler concern and Zeitzler's plan for the Kursk salient offensive.On 5 July 1943,Hitler was anxious regarding the progress of the opening day.At 1230,Zeitzler reported to Hitler and answered vaguely and evasively.He had only scant information from the front and stated the Russians were resisting manfully and added carefully "the element of surprise was clearly not there"

    One point about the Lucy ring without discussing Roessler.

    There has been claims that this ring was used by the British to transmit intelligence to the Russians with the knowledge that the security source would be protected.Harry Hinsley rejects this claim.On the other hand,there has been the view expressed that the Swiss used the Lucy ring to forward intelligence to the Russians to disguise the source as Swiss and so minimise any threat to Swiss neutrality.(As regards Swiss neutrality,the Swiss knew by the summer of 1944,the likelihood of a German invasion was passed.)

    Regarding Paul Carell's insinuation that the Kursk plans had been leaked by a German officer.Not as far fetched as you might think although I have reservations on "Carell".One of the theories for the Kursk disaster was that the plans had been betrayed by pro Russian army officers of colonel rank.

    As the war progressed and especially after Stalingrad there were a number of German officers who for some reason or another became disaffected with the Third Reich and what it stood for.Moreover,the Russians had made inroads into the Third Reich loyalty of POWs.Many POWs joined the National Committee "Free Germany"which was a cover for Communist German emigres, and German officer POWs.There was resistance to this group from officer POWs since the emigres were communists (such as Walther Elbricht who was later to be one of the founding fathers of the GDR.) but a way was found to bypass this impass.The officer POWs were then induced by Stalin to join the Alliance of German Officers which seemed to fit the bill.Stalin promised that he would allow the post war Germany to adopt its 1937 borders.

    By summer 1943, the Russian controlled diffident organisations were up and running and by September the German officer POWs were on board and equally importantly,radio propaganda was being transmitted to the German home front and the Wermacht from these organisations.

    To be continued.
     

Share This Page