Langsdorff Of The Graf Spee

Discussion in 'General' started by adrian roberts, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    The following thoughts were inspired by the recent “Timewatch” documentary on the Battle of the River Plate; I was offline with Computer failure at the time. Since this is primarily about personality and moral issues I’ve put it under “General” rather than “War at Sea”.

    Why did Kapitan Hans Langsdorff scuttle KM Graf Spee and then commit suicide? Coward or hero?

    I presume most people reading this will know that in December 1939, the pocket battleship Graf Spee had to take refuge in Montevideo harbour after a battle with three British cruisers, HMS Exeter, Achilles and Ajax. The British Government brought great diplomatic pressure to bear on the Uruguayan government to keep the Graf Spee there until more Royal Navy warships arrived. Eventually however, the Graf Spee headed out to sea for what everyone else presumed would be a final battle, but as she left harbour her crew left her by boat and she was scuttled by explosive charges. The crew returned to Montevideo, and Captain Langsdorff committed suicide a couple of days later.

    Was this a simple matter of a man who refused to go and fight, realised that the shame would be too hard to bear, and killed himself rather than face criticism? This is possible but is it likely? He had been handpicked for the job; it’s difficult to believe that either the Nazis or the Kriegsmarine would have misjudged their man’s character to that extent. Did he in fact sacrifice not just his life but his reputation for his crew?

    I’m not sure whether British reinforcements had actually arrived but certainly Langsdorff had been led to believe that they had. He believed that he was taking his ship, his crew and himself to almost certain death. Propaganda-wise, the Nazis were in a win-win situation. If Graf Spee had escaped the Royal Navy and made it home, this would have been a victory; but if she had sunk in a heroic battle against enormous odds, then this would have been a glorious end that would have added to the Nazi myth. Langsdorff would have been remembered as a hero, even by the British.

    But in dying a hero, Langsdorff would have taken 1000 young men with him. What would have been the point? Sometimes, it was necessary for a Captain to sacrifice himself, his ship and his crew to protect other ships, e.g. Fogarty Ffrench and the Jervis Bay. But there would have been no such justification for Langsdorff to do that. Probably he lacked the ruthlessness necessary for successful military or naval command. He had apparently been emotionally affected by the deaths of 36 of his men in the previous battle, and he had rescued the crews of the merchant ships that he had sunk. So, a compassionate man, but compassion is not incompatible with courage in war, even if it is more difficult to combine with actively defeating the enemy.

    He must have known that not fighting would have led to disgrace and possible execution if he returned home and suicide would be the only way out of that. If he was going to die, it must have been very tempting to die a hero. But could it be that in order to avoid pointlessly sacrificing his crew, he displayed not just physical courage but moral courage, in sacrificing not just his life but his reputation? For a fighting man, would not this be the greatest sacrifice of all?

    One can only speculate; it’s impossible to be certain of what goes through another person’s mind; especially at nearly seventy years distance and in a completely different culture. It’s easy to believe what one wants to believe; to believe the hype rather than the mundane. Do any of you have any thoughts on this?

    Adrian

    6th Feb 2006
     
  2. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Why did Kapitan Hans Langsdorff scuttle KM Graf Spee and then commit suicide? Coward or hero?

    Poor Battle intel resulted in scuttle. Suicide could be disgrace linked with German style bushido or a situation similar to Rommel as there were Gestapo and Sicherheitsdienst present.

    I believe that if Langsdorff had gone out he would have done alot of damage to the British Cruisers.

    The Big question was where were the U-Boats. One torpedo to the stern and a Capital ship is easy prey.
     
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Herr Oberst @ Feb 7 2006, 12:12 PM) [post=45382]Why did Kapitan Hans Langsdorff scuttle KM Graf Spee and then commit suicide? Coward or hero?

    Poor Battle intel resulted in scuttle. Suicide could be disgrace linked with German style bushido or a situation similar to Rommel as there were Gestapo and Sicherheitsdienst present.

    I believe that if Langsdorff had gone out he would have done alot of damage to the British Cruisers.

    The Big question was where were the U-Boats. One torpedo to the stern and a Capital ship is easy prey.
    [/b]


    From my recollection he was duped by the British Intelligence network that there were (5) ships waiting for him to leave Montevideo. Ark Royal, Battle Cruiser Renown & (3) Cruisers. Ajax, Achilles & Cumberland.

    Something about them ordering fuel for the ships from the Argentinian Naval base at Mar Del Plata and leaking the news through the press. Berlin fell for it. The other two were really in Rio (1,000 miles away)

    Lansdorff was told not to let the ship be captured and skuttle was the only option. I don't think Landsdorff was a coward or a hero. He was by all accounts a gentlemen who sank his enemy merchantmen without loss of life.

    He apparently had a similar approach to "needless" death as did the Captain, Bernard Rogge portrayed in the movie "Under Ten Flags" by (Van Heflin) about the German Armed Merchant Raider Atlantis.

    PS

    It was Atlantis which captured the freighter "SS Automedon" and found the highly confidential papers on the British position and ability to defend their Far East colonies. The papers were passed onto Japan in Dec 1940.
     
  4. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (Herr Oberst @ Feb 7 2006, 01:12 AM) [post=45382]
    The Big question was where were the U-Boats. One torpedo to the stern and a Capital ship is easy prey.
    [/b]

    In 1939, the U-boats were quite a small force, many of the boats were not fully ocean going and they lacked the range to operate in the south Atlantic. It was as much as they could do to keep a small force on station in the Western Approaches to the UK, although this small force was very successful.
     
  5. Glider

    Glider Senior Member

    I think you will find that he was ordered to scuttle the Graff Spee as there is little doubt that to have come out and fight would have been (as far as Germany was concerned) a battle lost. The mistake of course was going in in the first place had he stayed out he may well have got away with it.
     
  6. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    </div><div class='quotemain'>I think you will find that he was ordered to scuttle the Graff Spee as there is little doubt that to have come out and fight would have been (as far as Germany was concerned) a battle lost[/b]

    Graf Spee 11inch guns range at 36,475 M With Exeters 8inch guns at 27,000M and Achilles around 25,000M
    Graf Spee would have easily out ranged them had she not gone to Harbor in the first place.

    </div><div class='quotemain'>In 1939, the U-boats were quite a small force, many of the boats were not fully ocean going and they lacked the range to operate in the south Atlantic. It was as much as they could do to keep a small force on station in the Western Approaches to the UK, although this small force was very successful.[/b]

    The first sea-going U-boat was U-27 launched in 1936. By 1939, a newer model had more power and greater fuel carrying capacity - the Type VII B (4,000 km) of range. There were more than 50 in 1939. The British carrier Ark Royal missed being hit by U-39 in September 1939 and that month the carrier Courageous was sunk by U-29. In October 1939, U-47 sunk the battleship Royal Oak... no doubt effective against Capital Ships. With the Altmark to supply her(the U-Boat) it would have been an interesting pair U-Boat and Graf Spee. View attachment 1500
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Herr Oberst @ Feb 8 2006, 03:20 PM) [post=45409]</div><div class='quotemain'>I think you will find that he was ordered to scuttle the Graff Spee as there is little doubt that to have come out and fight would have been (as far as Germany was concerned) a battle lost[/b]

    Graf Spee 11inch guns range at 36,475 M With Exeters 8inch guns at 27,000M and Achilles around 25,000M
    Graf Spee would have easily out ranged them had she not gone to Harbor in the first place.
    [/b]
    Wasn't Exeter heavily damaged and Ajax withdrawn leaving Achilles and the late on the scene HMS Cumberland that made up the availability had Graf Spee decided to engage?
     
  8. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    What I don't get was that Langsdorff reported all this unseaworthy damage to the High Command and the
    Uruguayans reported only one six foot hole above the waterline.
     
  9. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (Herr Oberst @ Feb 8 2006, 04:20 AM) [post=45409] There were more than 50 in 1939. The British carrier Ark Royal missed being hit by U-39 in September 1939 and that month the carrier Courageous was sunk by U-29. In October 1939, U-47 sunk the battleship Royal Oak... no doubt effective against Capital Ships. With the Altmark to supply her(the U-Boat) it would have been an interesting pair U-Boat and Graf Spee. View attachment 1500
    [/b]

    Of the 57 operational U-boats in September 1939, less than half were ocean going and all the engagements you list were much closer to home than the Plate.

    It is not just a matter of fuel. To send a U-boat to the south Atlantic would have meant a patrol of three to six months and they couldn't do it.

    But in any case, should the Admiral Graf Spee have tied herself to the speed of a U-boat?
     
  10. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Well, I wrote an article about this battle in the January 2004 issue of World War II History magazine, so I plug my own work.

    However, several factors:

    First, Graf Spee had taken a number of hits to her galleys, which meant that Langsdorff couldn't feed his men.

    Second, he'd fired off a lot of ammunition in the battle, and obviously could not replenish that.

    Third, British and Uruguayan diplomatic maneuvering forced Langsdorff to either head for sea in a narrow time slot or face internment. Since the British knew when he would sail, he would not have the advantage of surprise or position.

    Fourth, the British had convinced him (and Berlin) that a large force was right off the Plate, including the carrier Ark Royal and her torpedo-bombers, as well as the battlecruiser Renown with her 15-inch guns. In such a situation, Graf Spee would have no chance.

    Fifth, Langsdorff was a creature of the Imperial German Navy, with a lot of pre-Nazi tradition. He was gravely concerned with honor and the lives of his men. He saw it as foolhardy to send his men into a hopeless battle. At the same time, he recognized that Uruguayan internment of his ship would be a gigantic embarrassment to Germany and stain on his personal honor. If he'd just let Uruguayan marines march on to his ship and lower the Reich war flag, it would have been a monumental publicity disaster. Especially if Uruguay sold the ship to Britain.

    Sixth, Langsdorff was physically exhausted. He suffered head wounds in the battle, which left him sluggish and going in and out of consciousness. By the time he made the decision to scuttle, he had gone for days without sleep. The only advice he was getting from Berlin and the German diplomats on the scene was to attack the British or to scuttle the ship in best Wagnerian tradition.

    So Langsdorff chose to scuttle, saving his men from death, his ship from British or Uruguayan control, and what was left of his honor from calumny.

    He got the first two, but not the latter...Hitler was enraged that his toughest warship wasn't going out to fight, but instead repeating the scuttle of Scapa Flow. He was furious. Langsdorff took a lot of heat from Berlin and elsewhere, and paid for his decision with his life. I think he was emotionally exhausted, and with his ship gone, his crew interned, he felt his duty and life were done, so he shot himself.

    "My honor is my life. Take my honor, and you take my life." -- Hotspur, Henry IV, Part One.
     
  11. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    </div><div class='quotemain'>But in any case, should the Admiral Graf Spee have tied herself to the speed of a U-boat?[/b]

    No, But the U-Boat supplied by a Altmark or Q Ship could have operated successfully with a raider.

    This is a hind sight 20-20, what if, of course. Now this brings up a host of potentials such as IFF friendly fire problems. The U-Boat would operate in proximity, grid, contact, not formation so speed would not be an issue. The U-Boat could play clean up or sit and what for the pursued Graf Spee to bring the hunters past the U-Boat, waiting for the kill.

    I don't think there were any milch cows in late 39. So a surface ship would have to provide supply.
     
  12. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    Thanks for your comments everyone. Some thoughts:

    </div><div class='quotemain'>Suicide could be....... a situation similar to Rommel as there were Gestapo and Sicherheitsdienst present.[/b]

    I suppose its possible that his suicide was not voluntary but we would need a lot more evidence to take this as a strong possibility. [By the way, what were Sicherheitsdienst? Whoever they were they don't sound very nice.]

    </div><div class='quotemain'>I think you will find that he was ordered to scuttle the Graf Spee[/b]

    If he was obeying a direct order, then why kill himself, or be ordered to do so? Unless of course his values as a seaman and an Imperial German Navy officer made the concept of scuttling seriously unpalatable.

    The Timewatch programme said that the only advice he got by radio from Berlin was not to let the ship fall into enemy hands, with no specific instructions. This more or less ties in with what Kiwiwriter says:

    </div><div class='quotemain'>The only advice he was getting from Berlin and the German diplomats on the scene was to attack the British or to scuttle the ship in best Wagnerian tradition.[/b]

    The German diplomats on the scene may have mentioned the possibility of scuttling, but apparently gave no specific instructions. If Langsdorff had gone into battle again with the RN, it is unlikely that the Graf Spee would have been in a condition to be any use to the British if they captured it (especially if Renown had really been present as Langsdorff believed). Which brings us back to the dilemma that I originally discussed of why risk the lives of your men for honour alone?

    So I suspect Kiwiwriter is nearest the mark: Langsdorff was exhausted, injured and totally isolated in the decision-making process as well as practically.

    Neither the programme nor anyone on this forum has mentioned that he supposedly wrapped himself in a flag before shooting himself. Is this true? Which flag? One account I remember says it was the flag of Imperial Germany, in which case he was presumably making a political point. Another account says it was the ship's ensign: I believe the Kriegsmarine flag under the Nazis had a swastika on it, so in this case his motivation must have been less clear.

    Adrian
     
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

     
  14. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    </div><div class='quotemain'>Before he shot himself he wrapped his body in the old German Imperial Navy flag.[/b]


    Well this would certainly make sense

    adrian
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (adrian roberts @ Feb 10 2006, 10:57 AM) [post=45518]</div><div class='quotemain'>Before he shot himself he wrapped his body in the old German Imperial Navy flag.[/b]


    Well this would certainly make sense

    adrian
    [/b]
    Hi Adrian,

    Are you being facetious or agreeing that it would have been this flag and not one with the Swastika?


    Geoff
     
  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    How long does it take to scuttle a ship that size? Was there a chance of capture by the British if he decided he couldn't escape?
     
  17. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    (jimbotosome @ Feb 9 2006, 09:38 PM) [post=45523]How long does it take to scuttle a ship that size? Was there a chance of capture by the British if he decided he couldn't escape?
    [/b]

    The crew lowered torpedo heads into engineering spaces, and set timers on them, and two of the sets of heads went off. The third did not, which accounts for the photographs of the blazing half-sunk wreck...she did not all go up at once in the necessary fireball. However, the sinking was accomplished quickly.

    I suspect that the British would not have been able to capture the Graf Spee in Decatur style, if she had gone to sea or been interned. She probably would have gone down like Bismarck, with most of her crew going down with her.
     
  18. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

     
  19. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor

  20. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    </div><div class='quotemain'>
    Not really on topic but divers have raised the Imperial Eagle from the Graf Spee almost intact from the bottom of the River Plate.
    [/b]

    ....which is an example of the fact that the Germans were re-arming before the Nazis came to power

    Adrian
     

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