KO'ed Sherman in Lingevres

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by vppelt68, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. vppelt68

    vppelt68 Junior Member

    Hello

    Any 8th AB or Sherman experts here?

    Anybody know where to find more pics or info about corporal Johnsons ko'ed Sherman. Have a pic of it in front of the church in Lingevres, mid june. Should be a 4/7th RDG tank that some sources describe as a signals tank (= command version?), if one, why led by a corporal? Doesn´t look like an OP tank to me, either.

    Another question is, it seems to have a 3-piece bolted transmission cover that is very uncommon to British Sherman III (M4A2) tanks, that most/all 8th AB non-DD or Firefly tanks were at the moment.

    TIA,
    V-P
     
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  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  3. vppelt68

    vppelt68 Junior Member

    Yes

    Judged by the shape of the hull, could be a Sherman I, III or V. There´s just no mark I or V (except VC which this clearly isn´t) with 4/7th RDG in my records. You can see the bolted transmission cover that is very rare with a Sherman III.

    Regards,
    V-P
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Had a quick look in Delaforce's 'Monty's Mauraders' and not really much in it about that battle, just reference to three Panthers being destroyed in three shots by Sgt Harris and his Scottish gunner Mackillop.
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    When you say led by a Corporal. Does it list the whole crew in that tank and him as the tank commander ?
     
  6. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi,
    Cannot cast any new light on the technical information but this is a brief account of the Action at Lingeveres on that day;

    The troop on the day consisted of 3 tanks I believe it was usually four to a troop(someone please correct me if I`m wrong) so I am assuming that one tank was lost previousl to this battle, The lead tank was commanded by Lt Alastair Morrison, and the others commanded by Sergeant Harris and Corporal Johnson.Sgt Harris was in a Sherman Firefly
    Four Troop supported the 9thDLI in capturing Lingeveres at around 1200hrs on the 14/06/1944 and they were consolidating when Sergeant Harris saw a Panther moving in the distance which they promptly knocked out with their 17pdr fired by Trooper MacKillop.
    Two of the Durhams 6pdr anti-tank guns had been knocked out and Sergeant Harris, covered the Lingeveres - Tilly road to the East, he then spotted a Sherman(?) driving up the road from Tilly fast towards him. Just before reaching the village the Sherman turned off the main road, revealing a Panther just behind it. Sgt Harris and Trooper MacKillop disabled the Panther with one shot, knocking off its track and causing it swerve off the road and into the hedgerow. The Panther was finished by a PIAT team of 9DLI the Durhams CO Major John Mogg, who was actually in charge of the weapon at the time.
    Corporal Johnson's Sherman tank went forward to investigate after more tanks were heard approaching from the south. However he was hit just infront of Lingeveres Church and disabled.Cpl Johnson ,badly wounded climbed out of his tank(Johnson DOW the following day). radio-operator, L/Cpl Draper also jumped out of the Sherman and ran for cover, but realised that their driver, Trooper Dagley was trapped inside (in the Sherman, if the turret was turned in a particular direction, the driver's hatch would be obstructed) so he ran back in full view of the enemy and helped Dagley by jumping back in the tank, traversing the turret, then climbing round and pulling him out of the hatch. Trooper Dagley unfortunately died a few minutes later Cpl Draper was awarded the military medal for his actions.
    The Germans mounted several counterattacks, but all were beaten off. The tanks running short of ammunition, retired to the rear to resupply.Sgt Harris went first, and was back in Lingeveres just in time as Four Panthers were seen moving East towards Lingeveres. The Panther following up at the back was knocked out by Captain Stirling, (A Squadron's second in command,) who was to the north-west of the town covering the flanks. The other three Panthers, headed directly towards the town. Sgt Harris was by now north-west of the church, and in a perfect position to take on this new attack and promptly knocked out the two leading Panthers, The surviving Panther carried on past his comrades wrecks right into Lingeveres town centre itself, where it too was dispatched by Sgt Harris and Trooper MacKillop.
    .Sgt W Harris was awarded a DCM and MacKillop got a Mention in Despatches for destroying 5 Panthers with as many shots.4/7 DG lost 12men 9DLI 41 and 6DLI nearby at Verrieres lost a further 36 (KIA/ Died of Wounds)

    Regards
    Verrieres
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    MM Citation for this tank's final action. From that site.

    I can't make much comment from that grainy picture.
    If there were most likely IIIs serving with the Dragoons then I wouldn't let any transmission cover deter me from that identification, there being such a variety of interchanging of those parts. I'm not entirely sure it has a bolted cover though, found a clearer but smaller picture on IWM collections and on zooming in on Photoshop it looks like the lines that would be the bolted joints could well be a residue of something running down the burning tank, or some other muck.
    If it is a bolted cover I can't see that much wrong with a III having one anyway?
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  10. vppelt68

    vppelt68 Junior Member

    Hi

    The battle of Lingevres is one of the best described single actions in two major "German tanks in Normandy"- themed books, and rather much of info is also available in internet, like Verrieres has just shown us, Thank you!

    I visited Lingevres last summer. In beautiful summer weather with the horrors of war 2/3 of a century away it was impossible to compare the village that day with the grime and destruction shown in WW2 photos and in the painful memories of all veterans that had to go through the hell of war.

    On the lighter side of all this, as an ex-scale modeller that has rather recently switched to the dark side of wargaming I may still care too much about details :) True, those dark shadows could be caused by residues.

    V-P
     
  11. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Here we go, by a strange piece of coincidence I was today in York where I visited the Royal Dragoon Guards Regimental museum
    If I had seen this thread, I would have paid more attention to the 4/7th Dragoon Guards display.
    Anyway, I have a version of the picture in question that clearly shows the 3-piece transmission housing punctured in five places.

    [​IMG]

    I think that it is a Sherman III. It is too a 'command tank' or possibly a rear link vehicle as it has an extra No. 19 set fitted. The aerials are just visible protruding from the glacis antenna base on the hull, next to the co-driver's hood. These extra sets were fitted in the hull sponson next to the machine gunner and operated by him. In addition to the radio set in the turret bustle. Possibly as a rear link to HQ or to speak to the infantry or artillery.
     

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  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Nice one Bod.
    Is that synchronicity, or serendipity?.. I'm never quite sure.
     
  13. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Here are a few photos that I shot today in York.
     

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  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Verrieres -
    not too surprised that you are confused with the four or three Tanks per troop - early on there were Armoured Brigades known as pursuit Tanks whose Troops.
    were of four Tanks each.
    Then there were assualt formations also in bdes these had Tanks such as Valentine and Matilda and were in Army Tank bdes with three Tanks per troop. These "army" tanks were alleged to break through the enemy line to allow the lighter Tanks to pursue the enemy and create havoc in the rear of their broken lines.
    Then there were smart assses in the war Office who felt that this should be signified by a new badge and so the RAC was formed to the detriment of the RTR- the new badge had the central mailed fist and the arrows of the pursuit.
    Then the war moved on with a mix of two Churchill/Cromwells/Comets tanks AND two Shermans with the 17 pounder guns - so all units today are known as "Armoured " with four Tanks of this mix.
    So now we have Battle tanks - mainly big heavy Challengers - with puny little light tanks scampering around as recconnaisance tanks - with only Two battalions of the old RTR left and only one - the 2nd RTR fighting and the 1st RTR is an experimental unit - all the others do six years as fighting units and six years as recconnaisance units... so all units are in "Armoured" formations no matter how heavy as they all fight whether the enemy has lines to break or not !
    and to think that I failed WOSBIE as I couldn't spell RECCE ???
    cheers
     
  15. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    I also bought a little self published book written by a Gunner/Operator of 4th Troop, 'B' Squadron 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards. 'A Trooper's Tale' by Cecil Newton, from the museum shop. These scanned pages are what he recalls of the battles of 14th June.
     

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  16. vppelt68

    vppelt68 Junior Member

    Hello again

    Now I must say THANK YOU! Then I must apologize posting a stupid question (one should never write these at office, without ones own books nearby), as I mixed the nosepiece issue. According to monsieur Fortin it was the Sherman V that "never" had the cast piece, always the bolted one. Not that III couldn´t have a bolted one. In fact most non-roster pics of Sherman III´s seemed to have a bolted one... so my question was kinda stupid (imagine "oops" smiley here).

    But I have learned a lot of new things about the RDG and its history. Bodston, thanks for the scans and the pictures of the museum. Seems like a place worth visit when we´ll travel to England. That´s in our plans for summer 2010 or 2011.

    BTW I never knew the RDG used a MG42 :-D

    V-P
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Apologies if this has been mentioned but I read about this battle today in 'Panzers in Normandy' with some rather good pictures. Verries has posted most of the Pics I have but here a 'now' one of the Shermans location and a map of the engagement. Info below taken from the book:

    A German Soldiers Perspective:

    Leutnant Ernst, Platoon Leader, 6 Kompanie, Panzer Lehr Regiment.

    'We reached Lingevres and straightaway joined in the counter-attack. In the narrow village street the noise of the tracks and the engines of our tanks was deafening. Our tracks screeched as we turned just infront of the church where we came across the hulk of a British signals tank that had been knocked out. Along a stoney track, we headed for a small wood about 300 meters away.
    "Battle stations! Close hatches!" Came the order from Hauptmann Ritgen. Inside "Zitrone" there was tension in the air. Now that the hatches were closed the noise of the engine and tracks was muffled. All that could be seen of the outside world through the vision ports of the cupola was a narrow strip of hedges, fields and the edge of a wood. Ahead of "Zitrone" three other tanks were moving in single file up the narrow track. They turned off westwards along the edge of the wood and into a field. The wood, although very leafy, was really nothing more than a very thick copse composed of undergrowth, hedges and apple trees that had been allowed to grow wild. Tanks would only get entangled in it.'
    'Suddenly, the gun-layers heard the tank commanders shout: "Take aim, enemy tank at 11 o'clock-Fire!" '

    Ernest ordered his tank to the right and, on turning towards the small wood, he could see three tanks 50 meters away and a Churchill on fire. Behind the Churchill the outlines of the other British tanks wavered in the thick smoke as they made use of it to withdraw and disappear behind a hedge. Within a few more meters it was obvious to Leutnant Ernst that they were British-and in that instant a Cromwell on the right opened fire.

    'I shouted to my gun-layer: "Feuer!" and our round grazed off the top of the Cromwells cupola and flew past it. The enemy disappeared behind the hedge; then we came under fire from the otherside. "To the left", I shouted, and the PzKpfw IV heaved round with a jolt. The shape of the enemies tank grew larger in the gunsight. The recoil jarred the tank backwards as the round flew towards the thicket. It sounded like a direct hit. Smoke rose up into the sky. Nothing further moved. Evidently they must have been surprised as we were, and had got out of the tank on impact and thus escaped being killed.'

    Throughout June 12 and 13 the fighting for this small wood went on. They were short, sharp encounters. Whilst shells from naval guns crossed the sky heading for Tilly or Lingevres, the German tanks stalked their opposite numbers along the hedgerows. In these point blank duels all that counted was accuracy and speed of shooting. Losses mounted in a battle of attriction between tanks which ended with the allies capturing the wood and the panzergreandiers of Panzergrenadier Regiment Lehr 902 holding onto the track which lead to the church.
    Leutnants Ernst's tank and another had pulled back for a rest up the road to Lingevres. The two crews had almost finished preparing a wholesome country breakfast when a tremendous artillery and naval bombardment opened up on the village. Hardly had the food been dished out when over the headphones crackled a request for immediate assistance from "Kirsch", unable to move and surrounded by infantry.
    The meal had to stay in their mess tins. Blankets, washing kit and crew all disappeared inside the tank and the engine was started up. During the previous two days they had been called upon a number of times to perform a similiar task, and soon after passing the knocked out British signals tank they came up to the immobilised 'Kirsche'. Along the hedge they could make out the British troops by their round steel helmets. There was a exchange of shots and machine gun fire. Ernst and some of his crew opened their hatches and came out of the tank, although exposed to enemy fire, to try and tow out the damaged tank whilst the second PzKpfw IV which had accompanied them gave covering fire-which it kept up despite being hit at point blank range.

    'With the help of the crew from the damaged tank we fixed a tow. At that very moment, a soldier with both arms torn off by a shell appeared infront of me, moaning incomprehensibly in all the din that was going on. We hauled him up on to our tank to get him away to safety and then made our first attempt at towing the panzer away. Slowly but surely we moved a few meters while the cable taunted. The fire from the British tanks positioned in the little wood was getting more drastic by the minute; we had to get a move on. It was one of those moments when, with no hope of success, there was nothing else to do but get on with it. A young radio operator lent a hand. Shell bursts were hitting the hedge next to us. It seemed unbelievable it did not occur to the enemy opposite to aim higher, but I suspect it must all have taken place in the space of a seconds. Inside of me a voice was saying: "Its not going to work" but I somehow managed to keep cool and was more concerned at the time with getting the tank to move exactly right-to the nearest millimetre-than with how lucky I was.'

    A British Soldiers Perspective:

    R.S. Bullen, Driver, Herts Yeomanry

    '"Stand to" at first light on the 14th was no different from previous one. It was possible to discern black from grey but not men from shrubs and trees and the tanks in league could have been mistaken for buildings. As the sky lightened and turned to sunrise, it was apparent that the previous days hot and sunny weather was to continue'.
    'Breakfast, maintenance, checking of guns, ammunition, the wireless nets and dozens of other personal and tank dailey checks were done almost in silence. Probably everyone one shared the same thought: I wonder if......'.
    'Around 8am we heard the RAF arrive and minutes later the similiar sound of rockets came to us. "Mount...Start up...Driver advance..." and we were off. We went up a slight rise in the ground, through a hedge and had our first sight of Lingevres. From the angle we were at, it appeared to be a fairly large village, complete with a church and a few outlying farms, situated about half way up a small hill. One or two small fires were burning but it wasn't possible to say where as we were still about 2,000 yards away. We did however have a good view of the Typhoons going in. My own thought was we would only have the sweeping up to do.'
    'We were now advancing across a large field of corn in company with 8 other Shermans in a rough line abreast, with each tank well seperated from the next one. As a driver I was getting many changes in direction, unnecessarily I thought, until I realised we were advancing through our own Infantry who were invisible to me through my periscope. The corn was almost eye level!'
    'About 500 yards from the village I saw a Dragoon tank hit way over to our right. Suddenly one to our left stopped and the crew bailed out. That, too, was hit. Then, quite suddenly, all hell let loose. Small arms and machine gun fire was exchanged across the cornfield. The main armament of tanks fired at targets I couldn't see and the wireless sets which I could hear in the background were constantly receiving messages. I can remember one in particular: "Mike target...Mike target...Mike target..." followed by a map reference. This was from my own commander and seconds later a barrage of shellfire burst upon the village. It seemed to go on for a hour or more. In reality it was only a few minutes.'
    'We were now at the edge of the cornfield facing a typical Norman hedge. My instructions came over the intercom: "Go through and turn left" This was unusual. We had seen tanks defeated by such hedgerows before and, of course, the thin armour of the belly of the tank was exposed. I engaged low gear and went through, made a left turn and continued ahead. I can remember seeing a car, motorcycle and machine gun crew all knocked out. We were in a very narrow road and about a 100 yards ahead was the church where some infantry chaps of ours were digging in.'
    'As we got closer I could see more infantry setting up machine gun posistions. Then I turned into the village square and found far more destruction. The church, houses and shops had obviously been caught in the Typhoon raid. A few dead German and British soldiers were scattered about. A Sherman was positioned by the entrance to the church and, on the otherside of what I call a square but infact just a road junction, a Firefly stood with its gun pointing up the road to Juaye Mondaye.'
    'I was told to stop by a Sherman and wait, engine running. The Commander called a greeting and waved. In answer to a request from our skipper he pointed to the Firefly. Our Commander ran across the road, climbed on the Firefly and pointed to something out of my vision. I didn't have a chance to wonder what he was pointing at. Our own wireless operator shouted into the intercom: "Driver reverse, right hand down and go like _ _ _ _ !" I didn't hear the last word I was already going!'
    @The tank lurched, a building to our right collapsed, followed by a loud explosion and pieces of flaked enamel came flying around inside the driving compartment of the tank. For a minute I couldn't gather my thoughts. I remember saying to the co-driver: "Christ!" His reply was something to the effect that his wireless had gone "diss".'
    'Whe the Major rejoined us he gave me directions and guided us across a small field behind the church, we broke through a small hedge and parked in the corner of a small field. We found a stream running down one side of the hedge with a calvert about three feet deep in the corner. Taking cover there were about a dozen of the Somersets, most of them wounded. We gathered what might have been useful -grenades, Stens, a Browning, first aid box and a No.18 wireless, which the operator extracted from the bowels of a Sherman- and joined the infantry. From our new posistion we had a good view of the crossroads and saw that our friendly Sherman had been knocked out. We couldn't see the Firefly. Apart from spasmodic small arms fire and the ocassional thump of a tank gun, it was reasonably quiet.'
    'We learned from the skipper that he had seen a SP gun that required the attention of the Fireflys 17-pounder. While he was directing the fire he spotted a Panther up the Tilly road bringing its gun to bear in our direction. He shouted to our operator to "move". The shell, an HE, took us on the right hand side while we were in reverse. It ricochetted off and exploded in the shop we were going behind for cover. When we examined the damage sustained outwardly there was not much to see. The shell had left some score marks about a foot long and about an inch deep. The side of the tank was slightly concaved for about two feet. Inwardly, the front set was out of commission, as was the forward Browning. Flakes of white enamel covered the driving compartment.'
    'The infantry officer and our own quickly exchanged views on the situation, which wasn't very comforting. Our tanks had come up against a strong force of Panzergrenadiers and several of the 4/7 Dragoons Shermans had been knocked out. Our own infantry had lost a great many men and those left were engaged in house to house fighting. About half a dozen tanks on the enemies side were knocked out, along with some SP's, but two or three were still roaming about. This was particulary disturbing as we had previosuly seen shots bouncing off the enemy armour.'
    'After about half an hour in the one position, our officer took the No.18 set and went of to the village to see what was happening. The ground was hight there. Judging by the artillery barrage that arrived shortly after, he must have found things a little sticky as he was bring shellfire down on or very close to his own map reference. He arrived back shortly afterwards and said he had seen a Panther arriving down the Juaye Mondaye road in our direction. A few minutes later it arrived and stopped about 20 yards from our position. Only a hedge seperated us. We were relieved when it moved off again but our relief was short lived. It stopped at the crossroads and started traversing its gun in our direction. Whether it was going to fire at us with its co-ax or finish off our Sherman we didn't know. Fortuantely a Firefly of the 4/7 Dragoons, which looked as if it had been following the Panther, stopped where the German tank had originally halted. It fired two quick shots of AP at 300 yards. The Panther had no chance with two 17-pounders up its stern.'

    During the fighting for the village Leutnant Ernst's tank was damaged as a result of a strike by a phosphorus shell and Ernst was slightly burned. Two other vehicles were hit and he and his crew rescued some men from the fames and retreated to a German Field Hospital in a nearbt Chateau.

    A map of the engagement described by Driver Bullen.
    [​IMG]

    A 'Now' picture where the 'British signals tank' was.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The number of Troops in an Armoured Regiment itself is a problem. There is enough evidence to say that some Regiments used a 5 troop line up rather than the usual 4. I have seen a condolence letter for a member of 8th Hussars that clearly says the man served in a 5th Troop. We are not even able to say exactly what happened with the Fireflys. One per troop or all concentrated together?
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Immediate.

    Lingevres, 15th June 1944.

    Sergeant Harris was Troop Sergeant of 4th Troop, A Squadron, 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards. On 15th June the task of A Sqn was to support the 9th Durham Light Infantry across an open piece of ground to the North of the village and then to watch the approaches to the village of Lingevres against a possible tank threat.

    By good placing of his tank on the Tilly Sur Seulles road and by dismounting under fire and using his binoculars, Sergeant Harris was able first to stop an enemy tank with one round, of A.P. The infantry finished this tank off with a Piat. Shortly afterwards Sergeant Harris opened fire on a second German tank approaching the village and set it on fire with his first shot. Later in the day the infantry and anti-tank guns came up and the Squadron were relieved, but in the evening the enemy counter-attacked with tanks and destroyed the anti-tank guns, Sergeant Harris again positioned his tank admirably and by giving clear orders and remaining calm was able to destroy three more enemy tanks in very quick succession. His speed in spotting the targets, skill in positioning his tank and extreme measure of alertness for a long period resulted in him shooting five Panther tanks.

    Gazetted 31.8.44
     
  20. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

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