Jews Not Allowed Dogs ....?

Discussion in 'The Holocaust' started by Steve G, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Fireman

    I'm sure you don't want to be the only person on this forum who refers to me as Mr.Goldstein.

    Ron
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Fireman


    along with Ron's posting
    a possible reason could have been that yellow would have stood out on most clothing and easily identified.
     
  3. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    My better half has just reminded me that our Prague guide also mentioned that Yellow has always been the cheapest dye to produce.

    Ron
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    That made me wonder Ron, as I'd always thought it was blue, hence it's use as the servant's colour for hundreds of years.

    So I asked a mate that knows a little too much about historical dyeing (it's part of his living). He tells me that Yellow was indeed easily achieved with assorted natural materials across the world, but wasn't particularly known as a cheap one. Apparently (I'm no dye expert, this is paraphrased from him) - 'when Coal tar dyes were discovered in the c19th, almost all colours became available with no real difference in price'.

    He does offer a reference to Yellow being a popular colour during the middle ages among Christians & Jews, to distinguish themselves from other faiths - "a reflection of the yellow turbans or caps which the Persians made the Christians and Jews wear in the ninth century" (Don't know where that quote's from, presumably one of his many rather obscure clothing history books).

    Whether that muddies the waters (or dye vat), or is relevant, I don't know. Just thought I'd ask him.
    Some of it certainly seems to fit with the Caliphate references in your earlier post.

    ~A
     
  5. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Fireman

    I'm sure you don't want to be the only person on this forum who refers to me as Mr.Goldstein.

    Ron

    Yeah, Fireman, he won't let me call him Mr. Goldstein. I don't like it, but I call him...Ron.
     
  6. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Ron it is, thanks. As for the colour yellow: Some interesting theories but still not a definitive answer. The Nazis must have had a reason. It's going to be a question that irritates me for a long time. Come on chaps, I'm depending on you.
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Can't get you the exact source, some history book I read in the past, but I remember seeing enluminures containing Jews wearing yellow hats in strange shapes. There were laws in several places obliging them to wear distinctive clothing, and strange pointy hats were part of this.

    [added]

    Fireman, I'm sure you can read this Le port de l'étoile juive en Europe

    Au Moyen-Age, il y avait déjà eu des signes distinctifsEn France, en Espagne et en Italie, la loi obligeait les Juifs à porter la « rouelle », un rond jaune, sur la poitrine.
    C'est l'Eglise catholique et plus précisément le Pape qui voulait qu'on puisse repérer les Juifs et éviter des unions entre Juifs et Chrétiens.
    Le pape Innocent III publie un décret en 1215, lors du quatrième Concile de Latran, ordonnant que les Juifs portent des vêtements différents de ceux des Chrétiens. Il s'agit d'empêcher des mariages entre Juifs et Chrétiens.
    Le Concile de Vienne en 1267 qui ordonne le port d'un chapeau particulier, le Judenhut.
    En France, c'est Louis IX dit "Saint Louis" qui ordonne en 1269 le port de deux signes jaune l'un dans le dos, l'autre sur le poitrine, à partir de 14 ans.
    Pourquoi le jaune ?Chez les Chrétiens, le jaune signifiait aussi trahison : Judas est représenté avec une robe jaune ainsi que les Juifs. Vers la fin du Moyen Age, le jaune est lié au désordre, à la folie : les bouffons et les fous sont habillés en jaune (le nain jaune). Le jaune est associé à Lucifer, au soufre, et aux traîtres. Paradoxalement il correspond aux maris trompés alors qu’originellement il indiquait le trompeur.
    In the Middle Ages, there were already distinctive signs

    In France, in Spain and Italy, the law obliged the Jews to carry the “roundel”, a yellow round, on the chest. The Catholic church and more precisely the Pope wanted one to identify the Jews and avoid unions between Jews and Christians. The pope Innocent III published a decree in 1215, at the time of the fourth Council of Lateran, ordering that the Jews wear clothing different from those of the Christians. It ws to prevent marriages between Jews and Christians. The Council of Vienna in 1267 orders the wearing of a particular hat, the Judenhut. In France, Louis IX known as "Saint Louis" orders in 1269 the wearing of two yellow signs one in the back, the other on the chest as from 14 years old.

    Why yellow?

    Among Christians, the yellow meant also treason: Judas is represented with a yellow dress as well as the Jews. Towards the end of the Middle Ages, the yellow is related to disorder, madness: the buffoons and the insane are dressed in yellow. Yellow is associated with Lucifer, sulphur, and traitors. Paradoxically it corresponds to the misled husbands whereas originally it indicated the misleading one. In Germany Jews must wear a hat: the Judenhut is imposed by the Council of Vienna in 1267. It's a flat hat surmounted by a rod with a ball asd seen in the following blazon where three jewish hats are depicted.
    [​IMG]

    Jew with roundel
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Za,
    Many thanks for the research. The signifcance of yellow throughout history is completely new to me. That Judas wore a yellow 'dress' is a powerful influence on people indicating that yellow is not a colour associated with anything good! It's possible, I suppose, that some minor official, or even a major one! In the Third Reich could have known of such history and applied it to Jews and the armband. There were many highly educated officials in the Nazi apparatus so maybe that's a rout I can follow to solve this vexing question. Someone decided that it was to be yellow! It will all be in the detail, somewhere!
    Once again thanks for spending the time helping me.
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

  10. Stig O'Tracy

    Stig O'Tracy Senior Member

    Presently I'm reading Richard Evans "The Third Reich at War" and specifically the chapters concerning the Holocaust. I know that words in a book can not truly describe the magnitude of the horror that was the Holocaust, they can't even come close. I think that one would be driven mad if he were able to completely understand what it was like. I doubt that mankind has ever experienced so much suffering and cruelty compressed into such a short period of time. May it always be remembered and never repeated.
     
    CL1 likes this.
  11. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    I have been trying to track down the name of the person responsible for actually suggesting that Jews wear the Yellow Star of David during the Nazi era. I finally arrived at the German National Archives. It was there that I read that Heydrich is believed to have suggested it on November 12th 1938. Probably not surprising it was indeed Heydrich!!!

    All of the information regarding the first implementaion in Poland by Hans Frank and the gradual implementing throughout Germany is recorded. That is at least one question I have resolved, not seemingly important but non the less informative. Despite all that I have learned over the years about the Holocaust it still takes some understanding, if indeed I do!

    The whole history of the Yellow Star and associated yellow clothing goes back hundreds of years and and has always been the way that Jews were identified, a story in itself.

    As well as the Holocaust these archives do of course cover everything and have threads leading to even more information and Well worth a browse if you haven't already done so.
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    How about a linkie, then? :)
     
  13. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  14. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Za,
    If I knew how to do a 'linkie' I would. I shall have to do a bit of 'linkie' studying. If you just type in German National Archives all will be revealed, then take it from there.

    Ron,
    If it appears 'ad nauseum' to you I'm sorry. I posted it because in previous threads I had asked members if they knew the answer to my question. i.e. who instigated the Star of David. Many suggestions were made but none were definitive. Now that I have an answer I thought it would be of interest.
     
  15. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    Za,
    If I knew how to do a 'linkie' I would. I shall have to do a bit of 'linkie' studying. If you just type in German National Archives all will be revealed, then take it from there.


    Just copy the url in the address bar over?
    Also, could you be a little more specific as what you typed in your search engine to come up with the desired result?
     
  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  17. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    HEIMBRENT:
    Your talking to someone who thinks a computer is some sort of witchcraft put on this earth to torment me!!! What an URL is I have no idea, perhaps a war cry? And a bar over, a bar over what? I kid you not my cats know more about this thing than I do, they sit and watch with much amusement. All I typed in the 'little box at the top was 'German National Archives' A whole list of things 'popped up' and I carried on from there, Honest! I also promise to study the damn thing more.

    CLI:
    As I said to Ron, sorry to repeat it but... No one was able to give me an answer to my original question but eventually I found it and thought those who had tried to help would be interested, no more than that. That it was Heydrich was not, until now, known; at least by me and patently those who had offered advice on how to proceed. As for your question I would refer you to the reply I gave HEIMBRENT. I believe those three sources you have listed came up along with many others. You probably wonder how I find anything? I manage though. I hope that clears up why I raised the subject again, Ad nauseum or not I found an answer to something I and others didn't know and thought it would be of interest.
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Fireman
    As has been pointed out by yourself and others, the newer thread was a continuation of the same discussion raised in the older one. I've merged the two threads.
     
  19. REK

    REK Senior Member

    Your talking to someone who thinks a computer is some sort of witchcraft put on this earth to torment me!!! What an URL is I have no idea, perhaps a war cry? And a bar over, a bar over what? I kid you not my cats know more about this thing than I do, they sit and watch with much amusement. All I typed in the 'little box at the top was 'German National Archives' A whole list of things 'popped up' and I carried on from there, Honest!

    Are you sure you're not my wife?
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Now the proverbial hit the ventilator!
     

Share This Page