Japanese Atrocities.

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Kaiser, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. Kaiser

    Kaiser Junior Member

    During the war, Germany's war crimes are shown throughout the world. Yet Japan's war crimes are mainly kept secret. In fact, before the book, The Rape of Nanking, Westerners didn't know much about the Japanese war crimes. Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?

    One thing to note is that Japan, till today, makes no note of their own war crimes, and still maintains the belief that they were the victims of WWII (nuke). Their text book teaches how they liberated Asia from Western colonialism, which, IMHO is true to an extent. One reason why so many Asian countries refuse to allow Japan UN Security Council is because of their war crimes and their refusal to admit them.
     
  2. harribobs

    harribobs Member

    I don't think Japan's war crimes were kept 'secret' but certainly their atrocities in Nanking, and other Chinese cities wasn't as well publicised in the west as was the German final solution. Ms Chang certainly should be applauded for her work in making the crimes more well known

    There are several factors involved, as well as the proximity, as much as it may not be politically correct to point it out in these times, but life was very cheap in China pre war, and death was 'a way of life', corpses in the street were common and the yangtze river was awash with bodies before the Japanese arrived. The chinese troops were well aware of what had happened in the cities before they had retaken their cities.

    Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer
     
  3. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Well, here goes my 600th post!
    The Japanese war crimes were extremely serious and in many occasions, ghastly violations of most civilized codes of conduct. These included the use and testing of poison gases and bacteriological weapons. At a more mundane level, they included mass murder, gang rape, starvation and ruthless exploitation of POWs, and slave labor.

    Two big differences between the Japanese atrocities and the German ones: the Japanese did not engage in a deliberate policy of genocide against specific ethnic groups. While they killed millions of Chinese, there was no plan to exterminate the Chinese people.

    The second was that Japanese atrocities were often done in a poorly organized, and haphazard manner, usually at the whims of local commanders, rather than on the basis of direct orders from Tokyo (or Berlin). There was no “Kugel” or “Igel” order in the Japanese government until shortly before the war ended, at which point the Japanese planned to massacre all surviving POWs, so that their atrocities would not be discovered. The A-bombs cut that short, as the American authorities’ conditions given to the Japanese required them to turn their POWs over alive, or face serious consequences. After two atomic bombs, the Japanese did not want to find out what those would be.

    The Tokyo War Crimes Trial, presided over by Australian Justice William Webb, did not get anywhere near the coverage of the Nuremberg Trials. For one thing, the Japanese war criminals were not as famous as Goering, Ribbentrop, Hess, and Streicher, except for Hideki Tojo. The latter proved to be a fairly dull personality. My book on the Tokyo trial points out that more books have been written about the troubles of Billy Martin and the New York Yankees under George Steinbrenner than the Tokyo War Crimes Trial, which sent 21 people to the rope.

    The Japanese have, as you point out, never admitted their guilt or investigated their own past in the way the Germans have. There were no follow-up trials for Japanese war criminals in their own country, and no effort to address their misdeeds in scholarship or education. The Japanese tend to view World War II in terms of the horrors of atomic attacks, leaving out the years before the bombs.

    I hope that helps. 600!
     
  4. stage

    stage Junior Member

    Another reason was that there wasn't a Simon Weizenthal for the Japanese war crimes. Weizenthal was largely responsible for bringing retrobution onto the Nazi's through his tireless efforts.
     
  5. Kaiser

    Kaiser Junior Member

    Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer


    Really? Most of what I've read puts the number at around 5 million.
     
  6. nolanbuc

    nolanbuc Senior Member

    While both the Japanese and Germans commited unimaginable atrocities towards civilians, the Japanese will always have the worse reputation militarily in my mind due to their conduct on the battlefield and their treatment of Allied prisoners.

    I will stand corrected if I am in error, but the Germans, on balance, fought as honorable of a war on the battlefield as could be fought in those circumstances. They also, while not winning any humanitarian awards, treated Allied POW's much better than did the Japanese, which the POW camp survival rates bear out.

    The Japanese soldiers, the expendable issen gorin, often learned to cry out like a wounded American Marine so that they could target Navy Corpsmen. And the Japanese government to this day has never admitted fault in the Japanese Army's record of torture, deprivation, murder and even canabalism against Allied POW's.

    I know that someone will rake me with the Wehrmacht's record of attrocities on the Eastern Front, but that was not the common soldier's doing in many cases and it was also much of a tit-for-tat situation with the Russians matching them horror for horror.
     
  7. harribobs

    harribobs Member

    Originally posted by Kaiser@Mar 29 2005, 04:27 AM
    Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer


    Really? Most of what I've read puts the number at around 5 million.
    [post=32660]Quoted post[/post]

    I am using the figures quoted in the late Miss Chang's book 'the Rape of Nanking'
     
  8. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?

    Is a life more valuable than other? No. In sheer numbers, the Japanese killed maybe 5 or 10 million Chinese from 1932-1945, we'll never get to know.

    However, as Kiwi stated in his very good 600th post, Japanese attrocities were a consequence of war, not its main aim. The Japanese did not build industrialised killing centres to weep the Chinese, Filippino or Malayan race from the face of the Earth. There's a difference in esence.

    However, the escale of the terror bombings of Shang-Hai or Nang-Jing, the concentration camps, the use of bactereological weapons, the mass rape of women, the enslavement, starvation and work-to-death enforcement upon POWs and innocent civilians, brutal anti-partisan warfare, etcetera, etcetera, make Japan a nation that would bring nothing but death, evil and destruction at that time. Then Japan was a fascist, imperialist, belicist and racist nation no better than its German counterpart, and it carefully earned the treatment received during the war by the Allies, which was in many cases, far better than the one Japan gave to its enemies.
     
  9. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    I will stand corrected if I am in error, but the Germans, on balance, fought as honorable of a war on the battlefield as could be fought in those circumstances. They also, while not winning any humanitarian awards, treated Allied POW's much better than did the Japanese, which the POW camp survival rates bear out.

    I do not think that the Germans fought, on balance, honourable at all. None of the three branches of the German armed forces went clean as to what war crimes is concerned. All arms were heavily politicised and all participated, in different scales, in the Nazi Régime's policy.

    The German Army actively and widely participated in carrying out the Comissar Order and the Final Solution, both in the Western, Eastern and Mediterranean fronts.

    What about the brutal anti-partisan warfare? The gigantic and bloody anti-partisan campaigns in the Soviet Union and the Balcans, where over 15 regular German divisions had to fight Tito's Army and where 1,5 million people was killed? What about Malmédy, Oradour or Caën?

    I know that someone will rake me with the Wehrmacht's record of attrocities on the Eastern Front, but that was not the common soldier's doing in many cases and it was also much of a tit-for-tat situation with the Russians matching them horror for horror.

    Excuse me, but it was indeed the common soldier's doing. The war in the east was started by the Germans, and they were the ones who decided how the game was going to be played, from day 1. It was the common soldier's doing to kill the Untermenschen: the communists, Jews, partisans… it was the common soldier's doing to deprive entire populations of their means of life, starving or workinking them to death, or throwing them out from their homes in the middle of winter… And they never did it with a gun pointing at them or by fear to the Gestapo.
     
  10. Kaiser

    Kaiser Junior Member

    I am using the figures quoted in the late Miss Chang's book 'the Rape of Nanking'

    I think thats only for figures on Nanking itself. The entire war throughout China was probably 5 million-10 million.

    I probably worded the question wrong.

    Heres a better phrasing: Which Country's War Crimes Caused the Greatest Negitive Impact on the World?
     
  11. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    I say Kaiser I find it some what repugnant to compare war crimes. An atrocity is an atrocity no matter who commits it. All had negative impacts on the world as there can be no positive impact from War Crimes.
     
  12. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    I don't think that's entirely right, sappernz. Attrocities, as everything, must be put in context.

    For example, some consider the Allies' strategic bombing a war crime. However, it was part of the price to destroy Nazi Germany and all it stood for. Right?

    Now, what's the difference between the Germans jailing their Jewish citizens in concentration camps and the Americans jailing their Japanese citizens in concentration camps as well? Both are racist acts and reprobable. But if one consider that Germany was a totalitarian police State and the US was a liberal democracy, then there's a difference. However, there's also a very big difference as to how were these persons treated inside those camps.

    A final example could be the cold-blooded execution of unarmed German guards at Dachau by American G. I.s from the 42nd infantry division. Some 60 or so guards were shot, in contravention of the Geneva convention. But one cannot ignore the fact that those same guards, just a few hours before, were torturing and assassinating prissoners by the dozens, and that it was those G. I.s who put an halt to that.

    It's easy, but not accurate, to label all war crimes as the same.
     
  13. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Freidrich H , The one point to remember is who started the war and the way they waged that war.
    The Germans and Japanese had practiced the bombing of civilian targets for years. They were responsible for the deaths of millions and were supported by their peoples at home.
    The ones who claim the Allied bombings were a war crime were the ones who supported their own airforces doing the same thing, except that they lost, then it becomes a crime in their eyes.
    They could have surrended at any time.
    The Germans had a system of concentration camps set up for the express purpose of killing off anyone who did not fit the lunatic aryan mould.
    The Americans set up internment camps after they were attacked by Japan to hold Japanese in the USA who may have been a threat and with hindsight we know now most were not but there certainly were many who were.
    Not a war crime but a correct policy of security and I have never seen photos of gas ovens or mass firing squads at any of these places.
    So 60 murderous , vile , cowardly, sadistic guards were shot at Dachau after they had kiilled hundreds of thousands of people in the most repulsive way. Big deal.
    That is not a war crime it is instant and proper justice.
    By the way I have read several articles on this and other killings of concentration camp guards as well as having talked to a British soldier who was in a group to first liberate one of the camps. The articles mention that in many camps the guards appeared unarmed then produced weapons and attempted to flee. They were shot. The soldier told me that most guards had put on the striped camp clothing and pretended to be prisoners but the fact they were well nourished fat bastards gave them away and as they were caught most tried to shoot at the British with weapons they had concealed and were shot.
    When the Allies met fire with more fire to win a war they did not start the cowardly Germans and Japs started moaning about how they were treated. If they had won we would not be allowed this forum to talk about it.
     
  14. nolanbuc

    nolanbuc Senior Member

    Well, I was right about one thing, I did get raked. o_O
    I apologize if my post ruffled feathers, that was not the intent. However, I think may post may have been misconstrued somewhat. Poor wording on my part may be to blame. I was not talking about treatment of civilians whatsoever, I was discussing only battlefield attrocities and POW abuse, as I tried to distinguish in my first paragraph. Therefore, any attrocities towards civilians was not in the scope of my statement.

    Originally posted by Friedrich H+Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM-->(Friedrich H @ Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
    I do not think that the Germans fought, on balance, honourable at all. None of the three branches of the German armed forces went clean as to what war crimes is concerned. All arms were heavily politicised and all participated, in different scales, in the Nazi Régime's policy.

    The German Army actively and widely participated in carrying out the Comissar Order and the Final Solution, both in the Western, Eastern and Mediterranean fronts. [post=32701]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    That the German armed forces were politicized during the Second World War and helped to carry out the Nazis policies cannot be argued. The "Commissar Order" was a policy to liquidate Bolshevik officials (particularly the commisars) and other "dangerous groups". Now if you consider the commisars to be men under arms, then I suppose in that case I'm dead wrong. However, the other groups, such as Jews, were civilians and therefore not included in the point I was trying to make. Also, regarding the "Final Solution", it was a strategy for eliminating the Jewish population of Europe, who were civilians, and again, not included in my point.

    Originally posted by Friedrich H@Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM
    What about the brutal anti-partisan warfare? The gigantic and bloody anti-partisan campaigns in the Soviet Union and the Balcans, where over 15 regular German divisions had to fight Tito's Army and where 1,5 million people was killed? What about Malmédy, Oradour or Caën?[post=32701]Quoted post[/post]

    According to the rules of war, partisans or irregulars who do not wear the uniform of their country are not entitled to the priviledges of a prisoner of war when captured. If you were refering to partisans in uniform, I stand corrected.

    <!--QuoteBegin-Friedrich H@Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM
    Excuse me, but it was indeed the common soldier's doing. The war in the east was started by the Germans, and they were the ones who decided how the game was going to be played, from day 1. It was the common soldier's doing to kill the Untermenschen: the communists, Jews, partisans… it was the common soldier's doing to deprive entire populations of their means of life, starving or workinking them to death, or throwing them out from their homes in the middle of winter… And they never did it with a gun pointing at them or by fear to the Gestapo.
    [post=32701]Quoted post[/post]

    Germany certainly started the fight with the USSR, but most will agree that this is mainly because Hitler beat Stalin to the punch. I will concede the remaining points, but with all due respect you are not on topic with my statement, which, again, was regarding only battlefield and POW issues, and did not touch civilian attrocites whatsoever. Perhaps it was foolhardy of me to even attempt to address these matters separately.

    However, taking all of your learned points into account, can you refute the main thrust of my statment, which was that the Japanese were far worse that the Germans (themselves not squeaky clean by any means) with respect to attrocities against Allied troops and POWs? If you can, I will bow to your superior knowledge. After all, I am here to learn. :)
     
  15. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Freidrich H , The one point to remember is who started the war and the way they waged that war.
    The Germans and Japanese had practiced the bombing of civilian targets for years. They were responsible for the deaths of millions and were supported by their peoples at home.
    The ones who claim the Allied bombings were a war crime were the ones who supported their own airforces doing the same thing, except that they lost, then it becomes a crime in their eyes.
    They could have surrended at any time.
    The Germans had a system of concentration camps set up for the express purpose of killing off anyone who did not fit the lunatic aryan mould.
    The Americans set up internment camps after they were attacked by Japan to hold Japanese in the USA who may have been a threat and with hindsight we know now most were not but there certainly were many who were.
    Not a war crime but a correct policy of security and I have never seen photos of gas ovens or mass firing squads at any of these places.
    So 60 murderous , vile , cowardly, sadistic guards were shot at Dachau after they had kiilled hundreds of thousands of people in the most repulsive way. Big deal.
    That is not a war crime it is instant and proper justice.
    By the way I have read several articles on this and other killings of concentration camp guards as well as having talked to a British soldier who was in a group to first liberate one of the camps. The articles mention that in many camps the guards appeared unarmed then produced weapons and attempted to flee. They were shot. The soldier told me that most guards had put on the striped camp clothing and pretended to be prisoners but the fact they were well nourished fat bastards gave them away and as they were caught most tried to shoot at the British with weapons they had concealed and were shot.
    When the Allies met fire with more fire to win a war they did not start the cowardly Germans and Japs started moaning about how they were treated. If they had won we would not be allowed this forum to talk about it.

    Great post, Sappernz! And I am 100% in agreement with you. ;)

    Thanks for the answer, Nolanbuc. I know get your point. Thanks for clarifying.

    However, taking all of your learned points into account, can you refute the main thrust of my statment, which was that the Japanese were far worse that the Germans (themselves not squeaky clean by any means) with respect to attrocities against Allied troops and POWs?

    Then I'd say, yes. But then I would like to clarify two things from my part:

    1) Japan never sign the Geneva nor The Hague conventions. According to international law, Japan was not obligued to respect the laws it didn't sign. If you add the racism and Bushido code of the time… that's a deadly equation!

    2) Germans comitted relatively few attrocities against the Western Allied soldiers and POWs, not the Allies in general, since the USSR was a member of the United Nations as well, right?

    Then we could say that POW camps for British and Americans were quite 'comfortable' and the treatment they received was very generous in comparisson to the treatment received by Soviet or Polish POWs, or the same aspects under Japanese captivity.

    Now, the German Army fought against the Western Allies from 1943 onwards in an eastern-front-way, which was the type of fighting most were used to, specially the WSS. You cannot deny that fanatic members of the 12th SS Panzer divisions didn't take a single Canadian prisoner, or that a British soldier with a commando knife was immediately executed by his German captors, real commando or not, that the LSSAH killed unarmed British prisoners in 1940 and Americans in 1944, that 2nd SS Panzer division fought 'easternly', as well as many Army units.

    In the eastern front there simply was no distinction between men (and women) in uniform and civilians. Whether a Communist Party comissar was a civilian or a military comissar it didn't matter, he (or she) was shot. The partisan war (as that of the Balcans, in which Tito's men and women did wear uniforms or at least distinctive clothing) in the east was a full scale campaign which involved numerous regular battlefront units, which involved civilians, partisans and Red Army auxiliars. In some cases, Red Army paratroopers, communication or engineering officers were dropped into rear zones to help or co-ordinate partisan activity (pretty much like the American OSS and the British SS).

    Or what about battles like the siege of Lieningrad, in which workers were given rifles and thrown into combat as frontline soldiers?

    Maybe as many as 3 million Soviet soldiers (POWs in uniform) perished in German captivity, for mistreatment, starvation, being worked to death or plain assassination (the just-built gas chambers at Auschwitz and the Zyklon B gas were tested on Soviet POWs).

    Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.
     
  16. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Another thing, which I forgot:

    Germany certainly started the fight with the USSR, but most will agree that this is mainly because Hitler beat Stalin to the punch.

    This is a false assumption. To date, there's no actual proof of that. There certainly were many plans in the minds of military leaders like marshals Timoshienko and Zhúkov, who in 1940 had developed a plan for a pre-emptive attack on Germany in summer 1942 or 1943. But Stalin refused to consider any plan hostile to Germany. No document to date has suggested that Stalin had any intentions of attacking Hitler.

    Saying the contrary is thinking about Stalin's own thoughts…
     
  17. nolanbuc

    nolanbuc Senior Member

    Thank you for your reply, Friedrich H. Your posts are quite informative & thought-provoking. :)
     
  18. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Thanks a lot for the comments, Nolan.

    I always try to make them serious and informative, but some times I'm rather poisonous (sarcasm is so often a way of life… and it has become mine). ;)
     
  19. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Thanks Friedrich H for agreeing with me 100%, my wife only gave me 90%.
    While the Japs may not have signed the Geneva convention I belive that is irrelevant as " International law " is such a subjective matter that it is impossible to quantify.
    From memory the lawyers for the Jap defendants argued international law subjects as a defence yet the Japs claimed immunity from international law when they were winning.
    I think that there is to much discussion from a 21st Century Politically Correct bulls*** perspective rather than the facts of that moment in time.
    Always enjoy your writings mate, they are very good and very thought provoking which is what this forum is about. Keep it up.
     
  20. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    Originally posted by Friedrich H
    1) Japan never sign the Geneva nor The Hague conventions. According to international law, Japan was not obligued to respect the laws it didn't sign. If you add the racism and Bushido code of the time… that's a deadly equation!

    Neither did Soviets by the way.


    In the eastern front there simply was no distinction between men (and women) in uniform and civilians. Whether a Communist Party comissar was a civilian or a military comissar it didn't matter, he (or she) was shot. The partisan war (as that of the Balcans, in which Tito's men and women did wear uniforms or at least distinctive clothing) in the east was a full scale campaign which involved numerous regular battlefront units, which involved civilians, partisans and Red Army auxiliars. In some cases, Red Army paratroopers, communication or engineering officers were dropped into rear zones to help or co-ordinate partisan activity (pretty much like the American OSS and the British SS).


    I agree. Talking about the brutal anti-partisan warfare we should especially keep in mind civilian casualties. We should also remember that German cruelty often provoked angry and brutal response of the guerillas. Soviet partisans operating far from its homelands often treated all around them as enemies.

    Maybe as many as 3 million Soviet soldiers (POWs in uniform) perished in German captivity, for mistreatment, starvation, being worked to death or plain assassination (the just-built gas chambers at Auschwitz and the Zyklon B gas were tested on Soviet POWs).

    http://www.stsg.de/main/zeithain/geschicht...ow/index_en.php
     

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