Intelligence

Discussion in 'General' started by raf, Jan 6, 2008.

  1. raf

    raf Senior Member

    does anyone know if any intellenge was ignored by the government or the armed forces which suffered in loss of lives.

    thanks
     
  2. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    You're opening a can of worms here!

    One that springs to mind, IIRC, was the intelligence that was initially ignored that U-boats were operating off the US eastern sea board.
     
  3. raf

    raf Senior Member

    thanks...but thats my intention to open a can of worms and get a good discussion between the experts.

    i had in mind pearl harbour.

    but was wondering more of the uk defence or d,day +

    sory what is the IIRC

    THANKS
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.
     
  5. raf

    raf Senior Member

    cheers.

    i was thinking IIRC was some kind of intellegence code word or operation
     
  6. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    thanks...but thats my intention to open a can of worms and get a good discussion between the experts.

    i had in mind pearl harbour.

    but was wondering more of the uk defence or d,day +

    sory what is the IIRC

    THANKS

    A post-D-day one would be what was know about the position of German Armoured Divisions at the time of Market Garden.
     
  7. jacobtowne

    jacobtowne Senior Member

    does anyone know if any intellenge was ignored by the government or the armed forces which suffered in loss of lives.

    thanks

    Which government and which armed forces?

    The Americans certainly ignored a good deal of intelligence prior to the Ardennes Offensive.


    JT
     
  8. raf

    raf Senior Member

    thanks....ANY
     
  9. woodenshoe

    woodenshoe Junior Member

    PsyWar, that is exactly what I was thinking! I believe most of the blame for that has been put on Monty, but whoever was responsible, we do know that good intel was tossed aside because of the fear of it being incorrect or a possible trap. Unfortunately ignoring the Dutch underground had serious consequences!
     
    PsyWar.Org likes this.
  10. raf

    raf Senior Member

    is there a clame that if intellegence is ignored someone may be tried by a military court
     
  11. woodenshoe

    woodenshoe Junior Member

    you got me! but it seems only fair if ignoring the info results in loss of life, unfortunately, this would open up a HUGE can of worms!!
     
  12. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    you got me! but it seems only fair if ignoring the info results in loss of life, unfortunately, this would open up a HUGE can of worms!!

    Ultra Signals regarding the Movement of P.O.W. in the Mediterranean were regularly ignored. This resulted in the Death of over 2,000 members of the Allied Forces at sea between December 1941 and November 1942.
     
  13. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    It’s easy to criticise intelligence failures 70 years later, but to be fair, we never know exactly what intelligence was available at the time and how it was interpreted.
    All intelligence has to graded on its reliability. Obviously ULTRA was given the highest credence, but sadly in the case of Market Garden, the intelligence received from the Dutch resistance wasn’t taken as seriously – especially bearing in mind SOE’s earlier disaster in the Netherlands.

    It’s the nature of the game, at times good intelligence is going to be ignored, bad intelligence acted on, and at other times there’s good intelligence which can’t be acted on – for example in relation to the German attack on Crete.

    As a counter-balance you have to remember all the lives that have been saved by good intelligence. A prime example is all the Allied lives saved on the Atlantic convoys because of the SHARK intel.
     
  14. smc

    smc Member

    Stalin ignoring all his intelliegence reports in the run up to Barbarossa.
     
  15. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    It’s easy to criticise intelligence failures 70 years later, but to be fair, we never know exactly what intelligence was available at the time and how it was interpreted.
    All intelligence has to graded on its reliability. Obviously ULTRA was given the highest credence, but sadly in the case of Market Garden, the intelligence received from the Dutch resistance wasn’t taken as seriously – especially bearing in mind SOE’s earlier disaster in the Netherlands.

    It’s the nature of the game, at times good intelligence is going to be ignored, bad intelligence acted on, and at other times there’s good intelligence which can’t be acted on – for example in relation to the German attack on Crete.

    As a counter-balance you have to remember all the lives that have been saved by good intelligence. A prime example is all the Allied lives saved on the Atlantic convoys because of the SHARK intel.

    The case of the Mediterranean P.O.W. Losses wasn't due to Intelligence Failure. The signals that gave information regarding shipping movements that was used to intercept also told that P.O.W. where aboard the ships.
     
  16. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The case of the Mediterranean P.O.W. Losses wasn't due to Intelligence Failure. The signals that gave information regarding shipping movements that was used to intercept also told that P.O.W. where aboard the ships.

    Sorry ADM199 my reply was being written as you posted and not meant as a direct reply to your post, as it appears. I was just making a general point.

    However, the case of POW losses in the Mediterranean brings up another issue regarding intelligence. I don't know if this is the reason why the intelligence was not acted on in this case but some unpleasant decisions have to be taken on when to protect such a high quality of intelligence that ULTRA gave.

    It's possible that if ULTRA intelligence was acted upon in this case and all ships carrying POW were ignored it could have given the game away for ULTRA. How do you act on the intelligence without revealing its source? The Germans would have soon realised something was up if ships carrying POWs always got through. They would realise that there must be an intelligence leak and try to find out where the leak was coming from. Also they, no doubt, would have exploited the situation and used ships with POWs on board to transport the most important of cargoes, knowing that there was high chance the ship would not be sunk.

    I certainly would not want to be the one deciding when and when not rock solid intelligence is acted upon and who does and does not die as a result. :unsure:
     
  17. woodenshoe

    woodenshoe Junior Member

    Psywar, did you ever read a book "A Man Called Intrepid"? If not I bet you would like that one!! Deals with this stuff alot!
     
  18. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Psywar, did you ever read a book "A Man Called Intrepid"? If not I bet you would like that one!! Deals with this stuff alot!

    Woodenshoe, it's on my bookshelf but been awhile since I last read it :)
    My bookshelves are stuffed with SOE/SIS/MI9/BSC and especially PWE books :D

    The sneaky beaky war is particularly interesting to me. However, my main field of research is psychological warfare, particularly black propaganda, and have spent a lot of time at the British National Archives delving into PWE and SOE files.
     
  19. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Sorry ADM199 my reply was being written as you posted and not meant as a direct reply to your post, as it appears. I was just making a general point.

    However, the case of POW losses in the Mediterranean brings up another issue regarding intelligence. I don't know if this is the reason why the intelligence was not acted on in this case but some unpleasant decisions have to be taken on when to protect such a high quality of intelligence that ULTRA gave.

    It's possible that if ULTRA intelligence was acted upon in this case and all ships carrying POW were ignored it could have given the game away for ULTRA. How do you act on the intelligence without revealing its source? The Germans would have soon realised something was up if ships carrying POWs always got through. They would realise that there must be an intelligence leak and try to find out where the leak was coming from. Also they, no doubt, would have exploited the situation and used ships with POWs on board to transport the most important of cargoes, knowing that there was high chance the ship would not be sunk.

    I certainly would not want to be the one deciding when and when not rock solid intelligence is acted upon and who does and does not die as a result. :unsure:

    My Article in the Royal Artillery Journal of September 2006 explains the use of Ultra against shipping and the protection of Ultra. In other words conditions to be met before we could act on the information. Regarding the transport of P.O.W. The Red Cross came up with several formulas and ammendments over the years. These were always agreed to by the Axis but never by the Allies.
    In November 1942 the situation regarding the movement of P.O.W. from Tripoli to Italy was discussed at a meeting of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.
    "Dudley Pound(Chief of Naval Staff)drew attention to the report of the sinking by a British Submarine in the Mediterranean of an Italian Ship carrying British P.O.W.
    This raised a difficult problem. It was reported that some 10,000 Imperial prisoners were being held in Tripoli and it was probable that all North bound enemy ships would have some of them onboard. Were we on that account to refrain from attacking these ships the enemy would be quick to take advantage of the fact. The decision to adopt such a course would be for the War Cabinet to take."
    THE COMMITTEE
    Took note that the Chief of Naval Staff would give further consideration to this problem.

    "Direct quote from the Document."
     
  20. woodenshoe

    woodenshoe Junior Member

    Psywar, I figured you read that one! The thing that surprised me in that book was the amount of information sent to germany tru double agents. Obviously to send them down the wrong track! Very interesting stuff! I liked it very much, a long read but worht it!
     

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