Identification help - BEF Artillery unit and ammunition.

There has been a discussion on a 1940 thread over the type of ammunition stacked in the rear of the Scammell tractor shown in this thread :-

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/29818-royal-engineers-corps-military-police-lorry-piers-5.html

Can any arty experts identify the ammunition and pin down what sort of unit would have operated the vehicle ? Presumably a Medium Regt at Corps or Army level ?

 

If someone can ID the Calibre/Type of Gun I can produce a list of Units to narrow it down.

 

Scammel = Medium Regt - 60pdr or 6inch Howitzer.
Scammel = Heavy Regt - 8inch or 9.2 Howitzer - 5 Left at Dunkirk

Rob

 

Medium Regiments with a 6" Howitzer or 60 Pounder:

I Corps

3rd Med Regt 6"
5th Med Regt 6"

Assigned to I Corps

1st Med Regt 6"
61st Med Regt 6"
63rd Med Regt 60 pounders

II Corps

53rd Med Regt 6"
59th Med Regt 6"

Assigned to II Corps

4th Med Regt 6"
58th Med Regt 6" on iron wheels
2 Med Regt 60 pounders

III Corps

56th Med Regt 6" on iron tyres

Assigned to III Corps

65th Med Regt 6" on iron wheels
69th Med Regt 60 pounder

Saar Force

51st Med Regt 6" on iron tyres

Take your pick

 

Rob, can you tell me what this gun is ?



cheers, Rich

 

6inch Howitzer
Rob

 

Thanks Rob, wrongly captioned in the book then.

 

Another pic, from Pathe News, indicates it could be a 4.5 inch or a 60 pounder on a 60 pounder carriage. The angle in Rich's picture makes it look like it has a short barrel.

Andrew

 

Further thoughts:

The unit code 18 has a white bar below, indicating Army troops. Therefore all Corps level Medium Regiments can be omitted. Assuming the gun is a 60 pounder (or its 4.5" update) this leaves just three candidates according to Drew's list:

Assigned to I Corps

63rd Med Regt 60 pounders

Assigned to II Corps

2 Med Regt 60 pounders

Assigned to III Corps

69th Med Regt 60 pounder

Peter Taghon's excellent book 'Mai 1940' identifies the location of this picture as Schaerbeek in Brussels during the initial advance to the Dyle (the locals are all cheering at this stage) and I believe this narrows it again to I and II Corps.

If you agree so far, is it possible to pick one from 63rd and 2nd Medium Regiment?

Andrew

 

Sorry to throw a possible spanner into the works but I have a few Field Regiments at Div level with 4.5" guns in my 1940 Orbat.

I don't really get arty stuff so hopefully the above won't matter?

 

Field Regiments at Div level with 4.5" guns

They probably mean 4.5" Howitzer. The 4.5" Gun came out after Dunkirk.

 

That's right. The 4.5" howitzer was an ex WW1 gun, re-wheeled on pneumatic tyres, which was used by the field regiments in France together with 18 pounders and 18/25 pounders.

The 4.5" gun Mark 1 was a 60 pounder carriage converted to take a 4.5" barrel. According to the relevant WW2 Fact File, of the 76 so converted there were 32 with medium regiments in France with the BEF and all were lost. I don't know how to tell these conversions from 60 pounders which were also apparently with the BEF.

As idler correctly says there was another 4.5" gun (BL 4.5" gun Mark 2) which came out later. This shared the same carriage as the 5.5" gun.

Andrew

 

Further thoughts:

The unit code 18 has a white bar below, indicating Army troops. Therefore all Corps level Medium Regiments can be omitted. Assuming the gun is a 60 pounder (or its 4.5" update) this leaves just three candidates according to Drew's list:

Assigned to I Corps

63rd Med Regt 60 pounders

Assigned to II Corps

2 Med Regt 60 pounders

Assigned to III Corps

69th Med Regt 60 pounder

Peter Taghon's excellent book 'Mai 1940' identifies the location of this picture as Schaerbeek in Brussels during the initial advance to the Dyle (the locals are all cheering at this stage) and I believe this narrows it again to I and II Corps.

If you agree so far, is it possible to pick one from 63rd and 2nd Medium Regiment?

Andrew

The conclusion that this unit must be GHQ reserve allocated to I or II Corps seems logical to me. You too have Taghon ? Mine is 'Mei 40' in Dutch !

The Lambermontlaan Schaarbeek location (the northern side of Brussels) must mean that they were heading towards Leuven so I think this must have been 2 Medium Regt. in support of 3rd Div (II Corps).

As far as I can tell, transport for I Corps was routed south of Brussels.

 

My error- It just says 4.5" I added the gun as they are all guns to me.

 

I think the muzzle plug may make it look like it has a thinner barrel. But it's definately not the same model if its the same gun.

Edit: Its a canvas bag/cover rather than a plug

 

(What's it captioned as in the book Rich?)

It's captioned as a 4 1/2" Mk1 which my limited resources would seem to suggest is the 4.5" on the 60 pdr carriage.

However, I have the impression that vehicle / equipment captions are not the main focus of the book.

 

I'm certain that it is a 60 pdr carriage not a 6 in and almost certainly the 4.5 in gun. Approval was given in 1937 to reline the 60 pdr to 4.5 in in able to fire modern ammo with increased range. The reason the barrel looks too short for a 60 pdr in the photo is because when travelling the barrel was pulled back. Note the retaining strap a little way back from the muzzle and the wheels of the limber which wasn't used with the 6 in.

 

Here are a couple of pictures to illustrate what Derek has said.

Andrew

 

Some interesting images of what would seem to be 1 Heavy Regiment's 8" howitzers abandoned close to the Kemmelberg.





..and a close-up of a damaged breech.