I did some further research on this subject. At that time most of the inhabitants of Alsace spoke Alsacian as a first language. Alsacian is a Low Alemannic German dialect, not readily intelligible to speakers of standard German, it is closely related to other Alemannic dialects, such as Swiss German, Swabian, and Badisch. Alsace has been a part of France only since after WW1. The WW1 veterans fought in the German army, they still remember the time when they were a part Germany. However, that was a different Germany. As soon as the Nazis came in 1940 they managed the alienate most of the Alsacians. There were collaborators, however it is general thought today that not in a greater degree than in the rest of France. Most of the men you served in the German army were drafted, a minority of them volunteered. There were problems after the war, as the rest of France was very suspicious on the Alsacians and their behavior during the German occupation. Today the Alsacian identity is slowly disappearing. About 39% of the local adult population but probably less than 10% of the children are still fluent in the Alsacian language.
Alsace has been a part of France only since after WW1 You need to do some more research; that isn't true. Try looking up the Franco-Prussian War. FYI after WW1 France issued medals to Alsatians who deserted and joined the French Army - thousands were issued.
Ok, I know that, I was referring to the more recent past. Ignore the "only" if you want. There is still the period between 1871-1914.
Surely the phrase 'only' is somewhat a key point? It was under German control for 43 years. It was/is part of France for much longer; surely that makes a difference in terms of your original point?
43 years is a lot, 2 generations of Alsacians who spoke a German dialect and lived in Germany, under a rule that was nothing like the Nazi rule. If the Nazis would have been more lenient, it's not unreasonable to think they might have gotten some support. I think that everywhere in the world there are a type of people that just don't really care about politics, beyond their immediate personal interest. One day you are in country, the second in another. Many people just try to adapt.
I have no idea what country you live in, but while I am sure you could well be right in terms of some countries, I think you underestimate the French mentality. And in terms of the totality of the 20th Century, Alsace-Lorraine was French, rather than German.
Try looking up the Franco-Prussian War. . The one that stirred up the real anti-German hatred which culminated a whole new concept of "remembrance" ("Oublier jamais") - a concept founded on pure revenge rather than commemoration. This feeling was especially strong within Alsace-Lorraine (which was never entirely ceded to germany anyway) and it can be said that even an organisation such as the Souvenir Francais was having a sly (well, not all that sly in reality!) dig at the temporary German owners nof these provinces. Although I can see how the pure hatred may have subsided slightly with the passing of generations between 1871 and 1918 (only a small portion was "liberated" by the end of 1914) , it was still extremely strong. As Paul has mentioned, see how many from these areas deserted the german army to join the French after 1914 (it got so bad that Alsatian units were eventually moved eastwards to prevent this). Also check out the pre-1914 enlistments into the Legion Etranger - an unnaturally high number from these areas enlisted to avoid their military service being in the German army. Admittedly, some would have been pro-German (you'd have also got some pro-german Brits if they'd invaded the UK), but old hatreds die hard...and 47 years is certainly not long enough. Dave.
I met an old Lady a few years ago, her name was Ursula and she was German or at least appeared German. A few moments talking to her and I realised that there was something else unedrlying her accent. When I asked if she was from Alsace-Lorraine she was overjoyed to know that my lucky guess was based on her accent. The point is that it's sometime hard to tell in these border areas. Language can be defining issue in nationalism, (not necessarily always, say in Ireland or the former Yuogoslavia where Nationailism comes to express itself along relgious lines) and certainly one which was at the fore in Europe at the time... especially for German speaking peoples, all of whomm must have come under a great deal of pressure and propaganda to conform to the Aryann ideal. One other thing that I'm pretty sure is correct, but I'm open to persuasion otherwise, is that the SS unit that destroyed Oradour Sur Glane had a high cocentration of men from Alsace-Lorraine. If I remember correctly this is something that truly shocked the French in the post-war trial for these crimes. Not just the atrocities that occured but that they were perpetrated by people that the French considered to be French but who considered themselves to be German; conscripts brutalised by service on the eastern front perhaps, or die-hard, German-speaking nazi's, I can't say as my old memory fails me here; Perhaps someone with more knowledge of those awful crimes can chime in here? But again the point is that nothing is black and white, the only way we can reach an understanding of these issues is by frank and open discussion.
You are right about a lot of Alsatians in the Waffen-SS. But while the 2. SS indeed was one of the "classic" divisions and hence had a slightly different mentality than the later units, you should be well aware of this: Alsatians were chosen for the W-SS because they were Germanic, they weren't German (and that made quite some difference) - btw the non-Germans were very often treated as second rate by the RF-SS and the German W-SS members. And then, not all of them really volunteered but were conscripted (esp. after 1943 the amount of what Himmler called "involuntary volonteers" was rapidly increasing). Besides the reasons of non-Germans joining the W-SS were manifold: Surely there were die-hard nazis among the volunteers , some "just" wanted to fight against communism/bolshewism and some did it for patriotic reasons (hoping for an independed country e.g.). I was dealing with the story of an Alsatian who fought in the French Army till 1940. Later that year he was "transferred" to the W-SS as interpreter (how voluntary that happened is very hard to tell) and when asked whether he felt to be German he replied: "No. I have been French for 25 years. How could I feel as a German?"
Just been looking more deeply than I'd probably normally do into the actions at the Notre Dame de Lorette in May 1915 for a talk I've been asked to present and was quite surprised by one factor that I came across in some German records... though ,in the main, the defence of this key spot was entrusted to troops from Baden, a high proportion of Alsatian soldiers were also moved into the area because (according to one of my German sources - also backed up in a French memoir)... "they were extremely reliable and loyal." Certainly surprised me, especially with regard to German attitudes towards them later in the war. dave.
Colleagues; borders - in my opinion- are something artificial. Defined by the actual ruling power. If the Alsacians are German or French... the question is related to the year. Since I am Swiss and my dialect is an 'Alemannic' one and since I can perfectly communicate in my dialect with the Alsacians, I could probably say that they are not really French "by origin". But we all know, that the 'Alemannen' were a Germanic tribe who settled in the region once. History. What I know - and what has spoiled a lot of sympathy of the Alsacians to the French GOUVERNMENT - is that their original language was not only ignored but it was tried to replace it entirely by the French language. Language is always and important part of your idendity and if you are not allowed to talk and write in your own tongue, then nobody has to wonder, if the population starts to look around for an 'Alternative Solution'. A colleague of mine who is an Alsacian told me that his Grandfather had died in the First World War and the family was maintained by the Grandmother alone. His mother, until today, commits freely that she still prefers Germany under Nazi rule before the French. Not that she is a fanatic Nazi. But she sais that whilst under the French they were only forbidden their language and got no support else, the Germans provided them assistance in matters of clothes, food and money and guaranteed that the children could go to school - and finally could talk their born language. One may say that all these were measures of the Germans to win the sympthy of the Alsacians. Yes, most probably this was the case. At least for this family it worked out. It would probably have worked out as well, if the French would have given a similar support to such family...
