Hitler suicide...

Hi all,

Leaving aside the various conspiracy theories that suggest Hitler didn't top himself in his bunker at the end of WW2, do you think he would have still done it if it had been the British and Americans closing in on him, rather than the Russians? If so, why?

 

I rather think that he decided to commit suicide rather than be taken prisoner by the Allies and placed on trial.

He had the chances to leave the Bunker, as many did, but his mind must have been well set on suicide.

He appeared to be unbalanced and was totally uncaring of the German People at the end.

Regards
Tom

 

In addition to the above reason, I think he believed that his fate and Germany's fate were one in the same and that when he died, Germany died. I think he felt that he had been betrayed by the German High Command and let down by the German people and consequently wanted to take revenge against them. In his mind, by killing himself he was also killing Germany.

 

Tom
I rather think that he decided to commit suicide rather than be taken prisoner by the Allies and placed on trial.

He had the chances to leave the Bunker, as many did, but his mind must have been well set on suicide.

He appeared to be unbalanced and was totally uncaring of the German People at the end.

Regards
Tom


Stig
In addition to the above reason, I think he believed that his fate and Germany's fate were one in the same and that when he died, Germany died. I think he felt that he had been betrayed by the German High Command and let down by the German people and consequently wanted to take revenge against them. In his mind, by killing himself he was also killing Germany.


I agree with Tom and Stig Hitler never intended to outlive the 3rd Reich / the fall of Berlin and it would have made no difference who was attacking the city.
As far as he was concerned the German people had outlived their usefulness to him and had not proven themselves worthy of his having graced their lives.
His exit he saw as being fate , his greatness having been betrayed by all around him.

 

I think as well it is important to recognise that the Hitler of 1945 was not exactly capable of any kind of rational thought - especially if he was on the plethora of medications that he is supposed to have been. But then was Hitler ever capable of rational thought at all?

 

Definitely he was! His racial ideology may seem cranky to us, and murderous too, but there is no doubt that he was able to take the power in a major country and make a serious bid to conquer the world. He made mistakes, he took wrong decisions based on faulty intelligence and wrong premises, but you certainly can't call him stupid.

 

I think that a lot in Hitler's rise to power and his early years as Fuhrer was very astute. But my feeling is that as time went on he became increasingly nihilistic. If anything I think perhaps his early successes convinced him that he had some kind of midas touch?

 

Hitler was always suicidal, and suicide was ever on his mind. Even at the time of his failed putsch in 1923, in the Bürgerbräuer Keller he had brandished his Browning pistol and melodramatically declared, after firing a shot through the ceiling, that if things went wrong he had four bullets left in his pistol, three for his collaborators and the last one for himself. And in December 1932 he had said "If ever the party falls apart I will take a gun and end it all in a minute."

Then on 1 February 1943, following the Stalingrad debacle and news that Paulus had not shot himself, he said "... What is life? Life is people. Some of them die, but those who survive are the people. But how can one fear that second which may free him from the sorrows of life, if only he is not kept back by his sense of duty in this trouble?"

And on 31 August 1944, to console himself he said "It takes only a fraction of a second, and you are relieved of all that and you can have some quiet and eternal peace."

The surprising thing would have been had he not shot himself.

 

Hitler became his own self fulfilling prophesy which in turn reinforced his own belief in himself , certainly self deluding and narcissism at its very worst , essentially he believed his own propaganda image as this was Hitler's view of reality , everything else was kept from him or presented in a "Hitler friendly" manner by people who knew how to advance their own cause by " working towards the Fuhrer".
Ian Kershaw's lecture for the Open University / BBC is worth listening to it gives a good insight into how he ticked and his death.
(See the link below).

 

Adam's question was "do you think he would have still done it if it had been the British and Americans closing in on him, rather than the Russians?"

I think that to Hitler whether it was the Russians or the Western Allies was irrelevant. What mattered, I think, was his final realisation that he was faced with total and utter failure. He simply could not accept nor face defeat.

 

I have to agree with the majority. Hitler didn't want to be paraded before a public court by anyone. He was too big a megalomaniac to submit to the judgment of mere mortals.

 

Hitler didn't want to be paraded before a public court by anyone. He was too big a megalomaniac to submit to the judgment of mere mortals.


I also agree.

Can you imagine the complete and utter anger inside that mans head had he been made to stand trial.

Would've been ironic if the judge was a jew.

 

As it was stated before he was unbalanced expecially towards the end of the war. I am sure I saw a program that said he had glaucoma and the only eye drops at that time available to control it were cocaine eye drops. So guess what happened- he got addicted to them and that certainly did not help.
Also he would not have wanted to live as noted before I would have thought

regards

Robert

 

I have to agree with the majority. Hitler didn't want to be paraded before a public court by anyone. He was too big a megalomaniac to submit to the judgment of mere mortals.


With respect, I do not believe that Hitler gave any thought to a trial, the very idea would have struck him as absurd. All his last actions indicate that he believed that a rump National Socialist government would continue, much as a national government had continued in 1918, hence his appointment of Dönitz as his successor. Moreover, the decision to stage an international trial of the ‘the highest ranking German leaders’ was only finally decided and made public by an executive order of President Truman published on 2 May 1945, three days after Hitler’s suicide. In the Yalta final communiqué there had been no mention of war crimes nor trials. See The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials, p. 30.

This is from the KGB’s record of interrogation of Field Marshal Ferdinand Schörner on 10 May 1947On Sunday 22 April 1945, I was unexpectedly summoned by Hitler to the headquarters in Berlin, that being the last meeting with him. ... Hitler informed me directly that he was going to take his own life at a suitable moment, so as not to be an obstacle to the talks concerning peace with one of Germany’s enemies.

I tried to convince Hitler of the necessity of leaving Berlin for Salzburg, saying that his death would make it impossible for any real resistance to continue. I told him that any successful resistance in the Alps required his presence and that his death would mean the end of Germany. Then all of us would have to decide whether to stay alive or commit suicide. Hitler decisively rejected my proposal and said exactly the following: “No, not under any circumstances. With me, it is different. You must understand that. The generals must stay at their posts. I cannot leave Berlin. I swore before the troops that Berlin would remain German. If Berlin falls, I will not remain alive. I am also the main obstacle in the way of diplomatic talks. Let Göring, Himmler, or someone else reach an agreement with the British. ...” Hitler’s Death, p. 244

Speer’s last interview with Hitler was on 24 April 1945:
Rather apathetically, wearily as if it were already a matter of course, he began speaking of his death: “I too have resolved to stay here ... Without excitement, he continued “I shall not fight personally. There is always the danger that I would only be wounded and fall into the hands of the Russians alive. I don’t want my enemies to disgrace my body either. I have given orders that I be cremated. Fraülein Braun wants to depart this life with me, and I’ll shoot Blondi [his Alsatian dog] beforehand. Believe me, Speer, it is easy for me to end my life. A brief moment and I’m freed of everything, liberated from this painful existence.”

I felt as if I had been talking with a man already departed. The atmosphere grew increasingly uncanny; the tragedy was approaching its end. Inside the Third Reich, p. 640
In fact Hitler, as I was informed by General [SS Obergruppenführer Gottlob] Berger [at Nuremberg] and also by Eva Braun, had wanted to take his own life on 22 April. But Heinrici had meanwhile been replaced by General Student, commander of the parachute troops. ... the change in personnel alone revived his courage. ibid, p.635

This was independently confirmed by Jodl only a few hours later, who gave the following account:Hitler has ... made the decision to stay in Berlin, lead the defence, and shoot himself at the last moment. He said that he could not fight for physical reasons, and in any case would not personally fight because he could not risk being wounded and falling into the enemy’s hands. We all emphatically tried to dissuade him, and proposed that the troops be shifted from the west to the fighting in the East. He answered that everything was falling apart anyhow, he couldn’t do it: the Reich Marshal could try. Someone remarked that none of the soldiers would fight for the Reich Marshal. To that Hitler replied “What do you mean fight? There isn’t much fighting to do.”
See full transcript of Jodl’s account in Der leitzte Monat by Karl Koller, p. 31 (Mannheim, 1948), English translation in Hitler, by Joachim C. Fest, page 738.

Hitler repeatedly stressed that he would not leave Berlin for the Obersalzburg. On 25 April he told Goebbels that he would not depart the ‘world stage’ as an ‘infamous refugee’: “Better to end the struggle honourably, than to live a few months or years in dishonour or infamy.” Michael Burleigh adds “Goebbels concurred, reminding this drained wreck of his world-historical significance.” The Third Reich p. 790.

Hitler continued to hold his military conferences, of which transcripts of many have survived. At the end of the conference on Wednesday, 25 April he said to Goebbels (the words before this are unfortunately lost);
[-] If we were to leave the world stage so disgracefully, then we would have lived invane. It's completely unimportant if we continue to live for a while or not. Better to end the battle honourably than to go on living in shame and dishonour for a few more months or years. Hitler and his Generals, p. 725.

Dr Johnson memorably said “Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." On that basis I think we can rely on what Hitler himself said about his looming suicide. A trial never at any stage crossed his mind. Indeed, the evidence suggests that had he been captured and told he was free to go, the humiliation would have been such that he would have shot himself.

Sources
The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials by Telford Taylor (Bloomsbury, 1993)
Hitler’s Death: Russia’s Last Great Secret from the Files of the KGB by V.K. Vinogradov, J.F. Pogonyi, and N.V. Teptov (Chaucer Press, 2005)
Hitler by Joachim C. Fest (Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1974)
Hitler and his Generals - Military Conferences 1942-1945 Stenographic record, editorial advisor David M. Glanz (Greenhill Books, 2002)
Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer (Phoenix, 1995)
The Third Reich – A New History by Michael Burleigh (Macmillan, 2000)

 

While the Amercians were fimly (inextricably....maybe inexplainably??? LMAO) wedded to the Alpine Redoubt idea....the British actively feared a Nazi withdrawal to the garrison in Norway. This persisted even AFTER Hitler's suicide, they feared the withdrawal of the Flensburg government so much they used the Heavy Bomber Force to mine the Kattegat and Skaggerak in the first week of May, and on the night of the 7th launched the Mosquitos of the FNFS against Kiel, their remaining port of departure for Norway. This was turned back in the air after the surrender.

As for the shooting into the roof of the beirkeller on the night of the Putsch, I always read THAT statement NOT as his own suicidal tendancy, but more of a "hey, I'm ALREADY reconciled to what *I* might have to do - so I'll have no problems taking some of youse beerstewards with me!"

In other words - if the active participants are ready to die....what's the life of an innocent bystander worth??? I'll bet there was no random beery f*rting THAT evening!

 

so I'll have no problems taking some of youse beerstewards with me!"

In other words - if the active participants are ready to die....what's the life of an innocent bystander worth??? I'll bet there was no random beery f*rting THAT evening!

Beerstewards? And the words in bold are interesting as well.

 

Welll, you can imagine the scene in the bierkeller...

"The next person to make a noise gets it!"

"frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp....."

 

Pop goes the weasel!

Today, April 30th, Hitler's Suicide Anniversary. From April 30, 1945 - Death of Hitler :

The Last Will of Adolf Hitler

As I did not consider that I could take responsibility, during the years of struggle, of contracting a marriage, I have now decided, before the closing of my earthly career, to take as my wife that girl who, after many years of faithful friendship, entered, of her own free will, the practically besieged town in order to share her destiny with me. At her own desire she goes as my wife with me into death. It will compensate us for what we both lost through my work in the service of my people.

What I possess belongs - in so far as it has any value - to the Party. Should this no longer exist, to the State; should the State also be destroyed, no further decision of mine is necessary.

My paintings, in the collections which I have bought in the course of years, have never been collected for private purposes, but only for the extension of a gallery in my home town of Linz on Donau.

It is my most sincere wish that this bequest may be duly executed.

I nominate as my Executor my most faithful Party comrade, Martin Bormann

He is given full legal authority to make all decisions.

He is permitted to take out everything that has a sentimental value or is necessary for the maintenance of a modest simple life, for my brothers and sisters, also above all for the mother of my wife and my faithful co-workers who are well known to him, principally my old Secretaries Frau Winter etc. who have for many years aided me by their work.

I myself and my wife - in order to escape the disgrace of deposition or capitulation - choose death. It is our wish to be burnt immediately on the spot where I have carried out the greatest part of my daily work in the course of a twelve years' service to my people.
Given in Berlin, 29th April 1945, 4:00 A.M.
[Signed] A. Hitler

[Witnesses]
Dr. Joseph Goebbels
Martin Bormann
Colonel Nicholaus von Below

 

I have to agree with the majority. Hitler didn't want to be paraded before a public court by anyone. He was too big a megalomaniac to submit to the judgment of mere mortals.


Hitler was apparently quite unnerved by the execution and public humiliation of Mussolini and was reported to have commented on not wanting to endure that fate under any circumstances. His instructions to burn his body seems to reinforce that desire to not become a spectacle. I agree that the outcome would have been the same regardless of which army entered Berlin.

 

It occurred to me the other day that there were only two things "wrong" with Hitler:
everything he said and everything he did.
It may sound flippant but I'm afraid I can't find fault in the statement?