British Attack on Oran French Fleet: Necessary? PBS Tonight

Discussion in '1940' started by francophi, May 12, 2010.

  1. francophi

    francophi Junior Member

    I'm saying no- "Angloamericans" were poor allies for the French after 1918...Very few units of the French Navy were ever captured by the Germans.
     
    OpanaPointer likes this.
  2. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It made the difference between winning and losing the war
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I'm saying no- "Angloamericans" were poor allies for the French after 1918...Very few units of the French Navy were ever captured by the Germans.

    Hello Francophi and welcome.

    An unusual first post to say the least. You give an opinion, but unfortunately no detail. Perhaps you could elaborate a little more in order to initiate a discussion on the forum.

    Afraid I don't have access to your PBS schedule. I take it you are not UK/Europe based :)

    Regards,
    Diane
     
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Welcome francophi

    I'm sorry to say that we possibly do not have access to that particular documentary in the UK.
    Could you possibly post more information as suggested by Diane,this will then enable a balanced discussion to take place.

    thank you
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Strasburg under fire from the British Fleet in the Med.

    [​IMG]

    I think I started a thread on this after watching a documentary on Sky. Quite tragic if memory serves me well. A case of the British and French Officers egoes getting in the way of discussion which created a atmosphere that cost many lives needlessly.

    Not to be confused with the fleet at Toulon either, which was a different attack.
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  7. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    As usual I will jump in feet first and say "Yes it was necessary" Since when do we trust the French? (And I live here/there!!!)) Petain was quite prepared to, and did in fact, help the Germans in all sorts of ways from handing over jews and Underground fighters to ordering his troops to resist the Allies, in effect declaring war on the Allies. An obvious step would have been to hand over the French Fleet, Churchill thought so and that is good enough for me anyway. I would, and no doubt will, like to hear counter arguments, thats why I'm here!
     
  8. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Drew
    Could you help me out please with some more detail on your post 'Strasburg under fire from the British fleet in the Med.

    Cheers
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    See the links in Post 6 :D
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Big deal! The rest of the French fleet was in Brest and Toulon and what did they do for the Germans? Nothing at all! So, in the end was it really so necessary?

    What about if the Yanks had dropped an hypotetical A-Bomb on Coventry just in case the Brits would turn coat in 1940? Would it have sounded so funny to you?
     
  11. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    Hindsight is a lovely thing to have.

    Now where did I put that time machine?!
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    But history is hindsight by definition :D

    Now if you want to discuss decision making processes then it's a different fishy kettle.
     
  13. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Senior Member

    With 20/20 hindsight not only unnecessary but a big mistake that could well have cost Britain the war had the Germans made better capital of the French outrage. AFAIK French contribution to German war effort was minimal compared to the country's potential.

    IMO avoiding it would have required a lot more trust and goodwill than was likely to happen under the threat of 15' guns.
     
  14. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Could Britain really have taken the chance ?
    There was no guarrantee that the French could have kept their fleet out of German hands and the world of 1940 , the sequence of events which followed was far from certain so many variables existed .
    With regret it was a hard decision to make and with hindsight the French acted honourably in denying the Germans their heavy units.
    Tragic in its outcome but in the position in which Britain found herself what would you have done , leave anything to chance ?
    Chance could have meant major problems in controlling the Atlantic when there little enough to spare and all quarters making demands for what little we had.
     
  15. francophi

    francophi Junior Member

    Very sad. DeGaulle would say "the Angloamericans should have trusted us more", a bit perfidious. Seems the appeal to Roosevelt was more concrete than I knew, French Admiral did have ego problems, and I think it was that Sky Documentary...
     
  16. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Very few units of the French Navy were ever captured by the Germans.

    The rest of the French fleet was in Brest and Toulon and what did they do for the Germans? Nothing at all! So, in the end was it really so necessary?


    Over the years I've been involved in a few discussions on this subject....

    The point of the attempted seizure of late '42 was that the Germans DID try - even if they failed.

    Looking back - this is exactly the SAME type of attempt the British were obligated to attempt to forestall in 1940 :mellow:

    Mers-el-Kebir is a strange issue for unlike most events in WWI - there were of course THREE contemporary views on the issue...

    The British - the French - AND the German view! :lol:

    At THAT point, so soon after the Armistice, Hitler was still firmly wedded to keeping the French Fleet and Vichy OUT of the game once they'd been GOT out ;) But the British couldn't rely on events or opinions not changing at some point in the future, sooner OR later. In fact - as early as 1940 Hitler DID issue orders to plan for the seizure of the french Fleet if required - ( the real) Directive 19!

    The British were obligated to ensure by their means and from their side that the French Fleet couldn't fall into German hands.....for of course, at a stroke it would threaten Britain's one guaranteed area of dominance over the Third Reich - at sea courtesy of the Royal Navy.

    As long as the French Fleet existed out of British/Free French hands - it's potential as a weapon was there. And if the British had instead had had to try and neutralise it AFTER it fell into German hands down the line - the cost of doing it THEN would have been frightful...:(
     

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