Bismarck Scuttling Charges

One important conclusion reached by David Mearns is that the British gunfire was clearly not enough to sink Bismarck. The short ranges at which the British ultimately engaged Bismarck were simply not allowing shells to penetrate into her vital areas. To be blunt, the shelling was just rearranging debris on Bismarck's deck and causing unnecessary carnage. With this in mind, it is clear that Admiral Tovey's decision to cease shelling and to deploy torpedoes was quite correct.

David concluded that the torpedoes were a significant contributing factor in Bismarck's sinking: He believes that Bismarck was sunk by flooding resulting from shell hits, damage sustained in the Swordfish torpedo attacks (survivor accounts noted the ingress of water aft), flooding/counter-flooding due to the German's own damage control to put out internal fires, and of course, the final torpedoes. He cites that the ship was clearly wallowing before the scuttling actually began and most decisively, the ship rolled over and sank in conjunction with the impact of Dorsetshire's last torpedo. He does not dismiss the reports of scuttling, but believes that this only hastened the inevitable by a matter of minutes.

source: H.M.S. Hood Association-Battle Cruiser Hood: H.M.S. Hood Today - The Wreck of Battleship Bismarck

 

"He successfully avoided homicide by committing suicide."

 

Yeah, and the Okie Boat ran into a wee bit of weather.

Well that's US shipbuilding for you. A bit of weather, and down they go like leaden ducks.

All the best

Andreas

 

There's always one.

Lion was a smidgen smaller though... Distance was probably less too?

All the best

Andreas

Well, yes, but still a big ship, and the distance was less, and air attack much less serious a threat in 1915 - and I agree that the practicalities of towing Bismarck to Britain in the circumstances at the time would have put it out of any realistic question.

But we've had sources to consult, time to think, and hindsight - the important question is what Bismarck's crew thought possible - any who thought beyond trying to get out alive, that is.

If they just opened flooding valves and left doors open - well - that's readily believable, but what were these alleged demolition charges that could so swiftly be set?

Regards,
MikB

 

Well that's US shipbuilding for you. A bit of weather, and down they go like leaden ducks.

All the best

Andreas

Meh, tell it to Halsey.

 

"He successfully avoided homicide by committing suicide."

You paraphrased it perfectly

 

As far as I am aware the damage caused to the Bismarks steering gear by Swordfish torpedoes, meant that the ship would only go in a circle.

I do not believe attempting to salvage and tow was ever a viable proposition unless the steering gear was repaired.

Plus, WSC ordered the sinking of the Bismark, which to me means not salvaging it even if it was possible.

Regards
Tom

 

The Italians towed the incomplete Impero all around the boot from Genova to Trieste to take her out of air attack range, one little known fact is that Impero was actually at a more advanced construction stage than Roma in 1940 but moving her sealed her fate as the materials required for complertion were left behind and only reached the adriatic coast very slowly if ever. Of couse the unfinished Impero was probaly closer to 20.000t than the 40.000 of the finished ship or Bismark and way easier to manage than a waterlogged Bismark with a stuck rudder would have been.

 

If they just opened flooding valves and left doors open - well - that's readily believable, but what were these alleged demolition charges that could so swiftly be set?

It is interesting to note that auxiliary and machinery spaces in Bismarck were equipped with a small rectangular white box labeled with a red "V" (abbreviation for "Versenken" = Scuttling). The box contained six dynamite sticks, a timer, and a percussion fuze to be placed on inlet sea valves and condenser inlets when the scuttling order (Measure "V") was given. To our knowledge, this procedure was carried out successfully in the center machinery space, the aft port turbo-generator room and perhaps in several other machinery spaces as well. In some compartments, flooding pumps were reversed and charges did not have to be placed. In other spaces, flooding was already occurring and access to scuttling charges was impossible and unnecessary.

source: Bismarck's Final Battle - Part 3

Regarding to the account of Gerhard Junack who was in charge for activating these scuttling charges the timers had a delay of nine minutes
source: Schlachtschiff Bismarck - Malte Gaack & Ward Carr - Google Books

 

Thanks, Itdan,
That looks a qualified answer, though I doubt blowing the inlets in the two spaces mentioned would hasten sinking by much.

I had begun to wonder if the reason for improvising such disruptive charges in Graf Spee was that she was being scuttled in shallow water, and Langsdorff wanted to be certain she wouldn't be salvageable?

Regards,
MikB

 

It is interesting to note that auxiliary and machinery spaces in Bismarck were equipped with a small rectangular white box labeled with a red "V" (abbreviation for "Versenken" = Scuttling). The box contained six dynamite sticks, a timer, and a percussion fuze to be placed on inlet sea valves and condenser inlets when the scuttling order (Measure "V") was given. To our knowledge, this procedure was carried out successfully in the center machinery space, the aft port turbo-generator room and perhaps in several other machinery spaces as well. In some compartments, flooding pumps were reversed and charges did not have to be placed. In other spaces, flooding was already occurring and access to scuttling charges was impossible and unnecessary.

source: Bismarck's Final Battle - Part 3

Regarding to the account of Gerhard Junack who was in charge for activating these scuttling charges the timers had a delay of nine minutes
source: Schlachtschiff Bismarck - Malte Gaack & Ward Carr - Google Books


Great information. Thanks

The Germans at Scapa Flow specifically mentioned removing portions of the condensers and throwing them overboard prior to scuttling their ships.

Even with all of their careful preparations, the battleships and battle cruisers still took four or five hours to go down. The Hindenburg took nine. The smaller ships went more quickly.

 

Stock Footage - Bismarck, a German battleship is sunk by British fleet, off Saint Nazaire, France.

 

The entire scuttling action is mainly propaganda with a long lasting history
From SMS Koenigsberg and Graf Spee to Bismarck: These ships were already and inevitable doomed when scuttled.
Kapt. Max Loof from SMS Koenigsberg made a mentionable statement after the loss of his ship:
“Destroyed but not Defeated”
This was purely for the german morale and the corps d esprit of the Kriegsmarine to withhold the British Navy that final Triumph of sinking these ships in battle - at least formally B)

 

I hadn't heard of the Konigsberg scuttling before.

The results look almost comical, like trying to commit suicide by jumping out of a ground floor window.

 

It is interesting to note that auxiliary and machinery spaces in Bismarck were equipped with a small rectangular white box labeled with a red "V" (abbreviation for "Versenken" = Scuttling). The box contained six dynamite sticks, a timer, and a percussion fuze to be placed on inlet sea valves and condenser inlets when the scuttling order (Measure "V") was given.


I guess I'm still surprised that charges were provided with such an explicit purpose, in the light of Raeder's General Order.

Regards,
MikB

 

Thanks, Itdan,
That looks a qualified answer, though I doubt blowing the inlets in the two spaces mentioned would hasten sinking by much.

Probably not at all, but it would make the process irreversible by destroying the cocks.

All the best

Andreas

 

Looks like a nice site. Hello to all.

From a buoyancy stand point, the Bismarck would not have sunk had the crew decided to keep it afloat instead of scuttling.
Providing no more ordnance was expended on the ship after the dorsetshire torpedos.
It would have sunk without the charges had the crew done nothing and just let any progressive flooding continue.
Which was not very serious at the time.
They could have kept it afloat and dewatered to a certain extent. Had they desired...
That being said

From a practical stand point the aircrews on the carrier nearby were MORE than ready to make practice torpedo runs on the hulk
So none of it would have mattered.

From a "who sunk the ship" argument..The Royal navy did, regardless of the scuttling...or not scuttling.

 

Oh and as far as Raeders directive...they did follow it...they fought to the last shell...after that is when measure V was given by Exec Oels.
from damage control central.

 

There is no evidence to support that at all.

The battle started at 08:47, and Bismarck was seen to be "lower in the water" less than thirty minutes later.

- There was no way a ship in that rapidly-sinking condition could be saved.

- It was quite clear that Bismarck was sinking, even before the "close engagement" and the torpedo attacks.

Although there is now a "scuttling story" complete with timings and names of people involved, these accounts are not only recent, but also conflict with the original set of survivors' tales.

 

Actually there was a documentary called Expedition Bismark ( presented and directed by James Cameron himself after his Titanic fame) He went to Bismark's wreckage with a mini sub if I remember correctly and found out symetrical holes at the bottom of keel , reinforcing self scuttling by charges. Though final act of sinking is purely academic. Guns out of action , superstructure destroyed , rudder and propellers out of comission , armor punctured several places by armour piercing rounds and torpedos , its bridge with all commanding officers demolished and out of Luftwaffe air cover Bismark was a doomed ship anyway even if its own crew sank it at the end.

Its sister ship Tirpitz hold on a lot longer though didn't it. Sunk in Tromso fjord Norway by Tallboy bombs of RAF in 1944.