Wittmann question?

Discussion in 'WW2 Battlefields Today' started by canuck, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

  2. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Canuck
    Ekins, or perhaps some anonymous colonial from A Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

    I believe the anonymous colonial is Syndey Radley-Walters He is still alive a few kilometers from my door. He finished the war with 18 tanks kills.
    On the other hand that was some fine shooting that day by John Ekins and what a humble, unassuming man.
     
  3. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Canuck

    I believe the anonymous colonial is Syndey Radley-Walters He is still alive a few kilometers from my door. He finished the war with 18 tanks kills.
    On the other hand that was some fine shooting that day by John Ekins and what a humble, unassuming man.

    Matt

    I cannot recall hearing Walters ever make a personal claim for Wittman. I have heard him talk about the collective effort of the squadron but no Canadian tanker mentioned by name. Do you know of a personal claim?
     
  4. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Canuck
    I have the same sources as you, I seem to have miss remembered it. Radley-Walters has always given credit to the Squadron. It was wrong of me to make the statement. Apologies.
    Matt
     
  5. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Canuck
    I have the same sources as you, I seem to have miss remembered it. Radley-Walters has always given credit to the Squadron. It was wrong of me to make the statement. Apologies.
    Matt

    None required Matt. I thought I'd missed something.:)
     
  6. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Matt,

    It turns out that your recollection was correct. Credit for Wittman's destruction has been given by some to Lieutenant Bill Logan, Troop Leader in "A" Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

    Found this on Maple Leaf Up:

    "Many of the points put forward appendix E concering the end of Michel Wittmann, in Brian Reid’s book “No Holding Back” were previous stated in a 2001 dissertation for a Masters of Arts degree in history at the University of New Brunswick, by Lawrence James Zaporzan, entitled “Rad’s War: A Biographical Study of Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters from Mobilization to the End of the Normandy Compaign 1944”.

    From the research by Zaporzan and Reid, the most likely scenario is that Wittmann fell victim to someone from “A” Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment. But who? Neither Zaporzan nor Reid names the tank commander who got in the kill shot.



    From the research by Zaporzan and Reid, the most likely scenario is that Wittmann fell victim to someone from “A” Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment. But who? Neither Zaporzan nor Reid names the tank commander who got in the kill shot.

    However, one of Radley-Walters troop commanders Lt (later Capt) Thomas Garfield (Garry) Gould is quoted in the book “Rare Courage” by Rod Michleburgh as stating that the troop commander who got Wittmann was killed four days later ( i.e. August 12). The action on the 12th of August is covered in Radley-Walters biography and includes the following:

    “Rad remembers that Barbery was quite a fight and that he lost one of his Troop Leaders there:

    “At Barbery, [Lieutenant] Bill Logan was a Troop Leader. Bill was about 100 yards on my left. There was a SP gun out there somewhere and it fired and it knocked him out. I jumped out of the tank. They [the crew] seemed to be coming out very slowly. Bill tried to get out. but he got about half way out, but fell back inside. He got out again and flopped on the ground. By that time I had got over to him. He was hit in the chest. To me, I didn't think that he was hit too badly, [but] he was bleeding and so on. We put a field dressing on him and we started to move him but he said. "No Major Rad. Don't take me out [yet]. There is something I want. I always admired the orders that you gave us." He was one of the new Troop Leaders and he had his little notebook [for taking orders] in behind the radio set. He said, "If I am going out, please get my notebook." I thought. "Jesus, Who wants to crawl in that thing?!" There was [still] the SP a couple of hundred yards away. Anyway, I jumped in and grabbed the notebook and got out. By that time a couple of infantry were around and they had the stretcher bearers. I said, "Want a cigarette?" He had a cigarette and we moved him out. I never thought anything more of it. We were having casualties all the time. But, they never got him back to the casualty clearing station. He died on the way.”

    So probably it should be Lt. Bill Logan of SFR who should be credited for the removal of Michel Wittmann."

    Who really got Michel Wittman? [Archive] - MLU FORUM
     
  7. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I am glad they killed the bastard, and I am sick of hearing about him. When are we going to see books and websites about the Allied "tank aces" of WWII, who often achieved impressive results with inferior equipment? Who outside their own outfits has heard of men like Dring of the Sherwood Rangers or Harris of 4th/7th Dragoon Guards?
     
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  8. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Who outside their own outfits has heard of men like Dring of the Sherwood Rangers or Harris of 4th/7th Dragoon Guards?

    ....or Reg S******* of 24th Lancers/23rd Hussars? Note all of these are 8th Armoured Brigade...
     
  9. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    ....or Reg S******* of 24th Lancers/23rd Hussars? Note all of these are 8th Armoured Brigade...

    I know Dring and Harris because I studied 8th Armd Bde for my own book. The 24th Lancers were a particularly fine bunch, it was a shameful injustice that they were broken up. Many ex-24th men compiled excellent records with their subsequent units.
     
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  10. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Lieutenant John Elmo Murray Logan

    A Squadron, 27th Armored Regiment, Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment, R.C.A.C. Son of Lt.-Col. Harry Tremaine Logan and Gwyneth Nesta Lilian Ruthven Logan, of Vancouver, British Columbia. B.A. (University of British Columbia). Age 27.

    Killed: August 12th, 1944

    Burial:
    Beny-sur-Mer Canadian War Cemetery
    Reviers
    Departement du Calvados
    Basse-Normandie, France
    Plot: IV. F. 2.

    :poppy::poppy: logan.jpg :poppy::poppy:
     
  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Ah, but the others were not dressed by Hugo Boss!

    People will always be fascinated by glamor, no matter what kind of swinishness lies inside it.
     
  12. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    People will always be fascinated by glamor, no matter what kind of swinishness lies inside it.

    Indeed!

    While at the same time, it is exceptionally challenging to find even a single photograph of Lt. Logan's headstone at Beny-sur-Mer.
     
  13. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Or, men like this:

    Sergeant Ralph "Pop” Beardsley had returned to the Squadron (Sherbrookes)after being wounded outside of St. André, and he was once again one of Rad’s Troop Leaders. One of Pop’s idiosyncrasies was that he never talked on the radio. He always listened, but never spoke. Pop was well loved and respected in the Regiment not only because he was a real character but also because of his physical courage.

    During the attack on Bourgtheroulde, Pop again displayed uncommon courage.

    Pop was knocked out. He wasn't very far from me to the left. I saw him bail out and then he came walking toward my tank. I thought he was badly wounded, but when he got there [to my tank] and I spoke to him, he said, “No, No, I’m fine. Nothing is wrong with me. But that is poor old Paul Elliot spread all over me. It just made mincemeat out of him when the round came through." He was rubbing all these bits and pieces of him [Elliot] off his battle dress. So I said to him, “Go on back Pop and pick up a tank and I'll see you in a couple of days time.” So we kept on moving towards Bougthorould and about a half an hour later I see this tank whizzing by in the field and it's Beardsley again. He just kind of waves as he goes by and moves forward to the left and up about 300 yards and Bang! He gets hit again. This time his driver was badly hurt and lost his legs. Pop managed to get him out and save his life and then went back to get another tank.
    I didn’t talk to him that particular time. We got into Bougthorould with the Black Watch and into a defensive position. Night was coming on and the echelon was moving in and the Sergeant-Major came up with the echelon to replenish [the squadron]. And I said, “Beardsley got knocked out a couple of times with us and see that he is looked after when he gets back to the echelon. I think he has gone back for another tank." He says, “My God Sir! Beardsley is right here!" He just pulled in behind me with a new tank and he was all ready to go again. I think that just shows the courage that man had. Getting knocked out of two tanks in a short period of time...But that was Beardsley and that was the way he operated.

    http://prolog.hil.unb.ca:8080/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1882/42968/MQ68285.pdf?sequence=1
     
  14. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Another little outbreak of Wittmann on Twatter has me wondering when all this interminable chat about the incident started.
    I honestly think 'who cares?', but it is mildly interesting in historiographical terms.

    First thought is that (other than those appearances in Signal) it might have been triggered by Lefevre's 'Panzers In Normandy' for ATB, or perhaps that 'Villers Bocage Through the Lens' book.
    A quick Ngram check might bear that out, though it could also suggest that the emergence of the Internet has fed all this 'Panzer Aces' stuff...

    Annotation 2020-01-03 040706.jpg
     
  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The Internet is awash with stupid people. Flat Earthers, anti-Vaxxers and every imaginable type of lunatic thought has spawned its own web-site. Why should history be any different? Given that the majority of books (on any subject) are worthless as any sort of reference what did we expect?
    Facebook (I. E. all platforms)has fooled people into thinking their opinions are important and so we get laughably ill-informed people opining on every subject under the sun. Facebook has only one aim-maximise the number of posts per day and if that means 950 stupid opinions battling 50 informed opinion then so be it. Its all about democracy and freedom of speech. Check out Sovereign Citizens and 1st Amendment Auditors on Youtube and you will see we (WW2 anoraks) got off lightly. I really do believe the worst aspect of the Internet is to allow crazy people to organise themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  17. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Well written and well said. I'm sure that felt a little better. :)
    Just not sure about the freedom of speech part. More often it's shouting down the contrarians.
     
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  18. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Would have to agree with M Kenny, FB is indeed awash with lots of opinions and "fanboys" of the MWAC. (The "hero in Vallhalla", "warrior" comic books comments) which quickly becomes tiresome.
    Crazy people to organise themselves, 100% spot on all it takes is "Babe the sheep pig" and the "free thinkers" all fall into line.
    Looking at Youtube yesterday one of the "ads" was for some daft "Real Science" view of the world, the usual junk - Alien technology used by the Nazis, the Moon is really a vehicle which was built to visit other dimensions, backed up by the searing logic soundbite "people are not asking the right questions because they are used to listening to the wrong answers.....the end comment being "what the hell is really going on".
    WW2 history gets the same hit from the Hitler escaped crew etc.("PGW" / "Sharkhunters", if you really want to waste an hour of your life look at their offering on Amazon prime.)
    The MW fans if I might quote from "Conspiracy", "most of them have not picked up anything heavier than a pencil"....... most have almost certainly not picked up a book - "the keyboard tells me all" and it must be true "cos I read it on the internet."
     
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