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Where can I find number & type of telephone sets in HQs?

Discussion in 'Trux Discussion Area' started by pamak, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    Hello everybody,

    I was going through all the War Establishment Information trying to figure out how many telephone sets were installed in the headquarters of various high level organizations (Army, Corps), but I did not find anything. It seems that unlike a detailed Table of Organization and Equipment, the War Establishment does not have a list of all authorized equipment where I would expect to find the number of telephone sets that were authorized for each HQ. I went also through the various signal War Establishment but again, I did not find there anything.

    By the way, if one wants to find the number of wireless sets that were authorized for each HQ, the Signal War Establishments give indirectly the answer by providing information about the signals vehicles from where one can find additional information about their wireless equipment. but still I could not see anything related even indirectly to the telephone sets.

    Was not there some type of a detailed equipment list for each formation HQ that would include the total number and type of telephone sets and in general the total number and type of every piece of authorized equipment?

    Thank you
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    There was - the War Equipment Table. Unfortunately, these don't appear to have been systematically preserved like the war establishments.
     
  3. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    Thank you for the reply.

    I bet this is exactly what I need to find for the Army and Corps HQ.
     
  4. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

  5. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Yes, AFG.1098 would give you the answer but as indicated they do not appear to have been retained. These were the British equivalent of the US Table of Equipment (which were latterly combined with the Table of Organization to create the Table of Organization and Equipment).

    I have had to go down so many routes and acquire so many publications just to pull together what would seem to be very basic information on the scale of communications equipment issued to units that interest me (specifically the various types of Allied and German Infantry Battalion). The only place I would imagine you could find anything close to providing some information for 21AG HQs telephone and line equipment issues would be in the Canadian War Equipment Tables. They are not readily accessible (researcher required) and as I found, you don't know what's in them until you've paid out for them.

    Gary
     
  6. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Gary,

    This thread has made me realize the next step in my Signals research is to go down this path as I've now made all but a handful of the Canadian Signals related War Establishments available online. As I'm in Ottawa and can do my own research, I'm happy to go and see what is there on all our behalf. What I haven't done (yet) is try to ascertain what files I need to look at. If someone can point me to specific Volumes/Files to ask for, I'd be happy to go take a look.
     
  7. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I did have a rummage through the WETs a while ago, only for Inf and associated Bns. The bind is they aren't on paper but on microfilm reel. Certainly some of the copies I've seen are difficult to read. The below should, I think, pull up the page of the LAC search engine listing their holdings;

    Archives Search - Library and Archives Canada

    They aren't all separated into date periods, which suggests they cover quite a wide period of time.

    Gary
     
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  8. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    Thanks for the reply Gary,

    I have a feeling that at some point I found online Canadian related War Establishments through this Heritage project (IIRC)
     
  9. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

  10. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Thanks Gary! The fact that they're on micro-film, which have largely been digitized, is a great thing. I realize now that I'd already collected some of the files and so they were sitting on my hard drive. :)

    Pamak, for Army and Corps level organizations, you need to keep in mind that they were composite units. The unit establishment itself, and presumably then the equipment tables as well, only covered the basic HQ structure of the unit. To that were attached sections of the various types as required for it's full function. For Canada, you can see some of the compositions here: Canadian Army Overseas - Signals composition - RCSigs.ca. For your purposes, the sections may or may not be relevant.

    As an example of what is contained, the October 1940 WET for No. 1 (Headquarters) Squadron for an Armoured Divisional Signals calls for 4 x Switchboard UC-10, 16 x Fullerphones Mk IV and 18 x Telephones D Mk V at Rear Div'l HQ. Advanced HQ has none indicated individually however it has 5 x Armoured Command Vehicles and a note indicates "Complete with equipment as detailed in Militia Form M23-1000, Appendix XXIV" which is where one would presumably find the phones. I don't know what form that is... The WETs are Militia Form M23-905.
     
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  11. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Pamak, based on Gary's link (search for "Equipment Tables" on that index page) they are on reels C-5020 to C-5028. If you tell me what specific files you are looking for (based on the index), I can probably tell you the relevant page numbers on the reel.
     
  12. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    Thank you Pronto!

    I think this is the right path. It is just that I am looking for this list in relation to the Advanced, Main and Rear Army and Corps Headquarters since I try to see how many phones were used to serve the needs of the commander and staff in these HQs

    I will go over the results of the query "Equipment Tables" on Gary's link to see if I can find the specific files.

    Meanwhile, I have a question:

    Do you know if ALL signals equipment (switchboards, phones, radios, etc) for say a Canadian Army's Main HQ were supposed to be provided by the attached (to the Army Main Hq) signal sections or was it that the attached signal sections simply contributed ADDITIONAL pieces of signal equipment to the ones that were organically part of the Army's HQ unit.

    If it is the former, this means that I only need to find the Equipment Tables for the signal units that were destined to serve the communication needs of the commander and staff at the different Army and Corps HQ (Advanced, Main Rear).

    If it is the latter, then this means that in addition of finding the Equipment Tables for the appropriate attached signal units, I need to also find the Equipment Tables for the Army and Corps HQ

    Thank you again for the tips.
    I will need some time to go over the whole +400 results to pinpoint specific files of interest
     
  13. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    That, I don't know. I think you'll have to try and check a HQ WET if you can find one to see.
     
  14. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    To the best of my knowledge, once you get past unit level (Inf Bns/ Armd and Arty Regts) signals equipment becomes the province of attached Sigs units. There can be a bit of overlap with Bridge HQ but I think once you get to Division HQs and above, they are not interested in trying to lay their own line and set up switchboards.

    Gary
     
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  15. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    In my digging I've found a couple bits of info:

    - The Canadian Militia Forms M23-xxxx were the mobilization tables used in Canada. There seems to have been some effort to keep them up to date however most that I've come across are from the early war period or when the unit type first emerged.
    - CMHQ (and the British) seem to have used the same style forms but they were called AF G-1098-xxxx. I haven't found these yet in the CMHQ files.
    - Specifically, the M23-1000 / AF G-1098-1000 WET seems to have had the Signals vehicle equipment lists in them. They are frequently referenced from the other Signals WET but I haven't located a copy yet.
    - In January 1944, the War Office issued a notice that they would be releasing Staff Equipment Tables on a monthly basis and these would hold the entitlements for vehicles and equipment. So, it appears to be a different name for a War Equipment Table.
     
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  16. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    I went over the index. I have not found yet information about Army level HQ WET.

    For Corps level I did find the following



    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Canadian war equipment tables - Canadian corps signals. n.d. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-1-76. Microfilm reel number: C-5020.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-8

    So, from heritage, we have available online the microfilm reel number C-5020 which has almost 6,000 pages

    http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c5020/1?r=0&s=1

    Unfortunately, I have not found yet the WET for the Corps HQs but if Garry is correct then, this should not matter.

    :
    I post the following finding because you mentioned in one of your posts the G. 1098. It may be just an index, but you may want to check it out. If it contains the actual G 1098 forms of different formations, it will be very useful for anybody who wants to get details about a unit's equipment


    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Publication of war equipment tables and amendments (Army Form G.1098 series) 1940-1944. File.
    RG24-C-1-a. File number: 93-1-115. Microfilm reel number: C-5021.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-8

    The following 4 files are relate to the WET of signal sections attached to bigger formations

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Canadian war equipment tables - A line section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. n.d. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-1-79. Microfilm reel number: C-5020.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-8

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - An operating section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1942-1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-258. Microfilm reel number: C-5025.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-8



    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - A telegraph operating section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-305. Microfilm reel number: C-5026.



    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - A medium wireless section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1942-1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-276. Microfilm reel number: C-5026.



    The following is a file with WET of Division HQ which one can use to see if the HQ by itself (without the attached signal sections) had some basic signal equipment

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - Headquarters of a Canadian armoured division. 1941-1942. File.

    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-162. Microfilm reel number: C-5024.




    And the following file sounds also interesting and related to the topic



    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Scales of mobilization equipment for all units and formations (field force type) (Note: Part # 4 apparently filmed on Job 30, Reel # 26. This job was sent to National Personnel Records Centre by Department of National Defence) 1941-1944. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-145. Microfilm reel number: C-5023.


    By the way, I did find also files that apparently have not been digitized yet. For example:



    War equipment tables. 1943/09-1944/08. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10075. File number: 13/TABLE/1/5.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15

    Anyway, I posted all the above just in case you or anybody else finds any title interested for further investigation. If you can just direct me to the particular page for the firs file (Corps Signals WET), I will appreciate it. By the way, I noticed that there are Mobilization Equipment Tables and War Equipment Tables. I hope, they are the same and this is just a change of the term.
     
  17. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Pamak,

    Thanks for the reference to the file not digitized. I'll try to arrange to see it when I get a chance.

    For the files you've listed, I've inserted the page numbers in the respective reels after the reel number.


    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Canadian war equipment tables - Canadian corps signals. n.d. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-1-76. Microfilm reel number: C-5020. Pages 510-534.

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Canadian war equipment tables - A line section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. n.d. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-1-79. Microfilm reel number: C-5020. Pages 643-674.

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - An operating section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1942-1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-258. Microfilm reel number: C-5025. Pages 5780-5859.

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - A telegraph operating section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-305. Microfilm reel number: C-5026. Pages 1986-2023.

    Mobilization, Equipment Tables - Mobilization store tables - Canadian Active Service Force - A medium wireless section, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. 1942-1943. File.
    RG24-C-1. File number: 93-6-276. Microfilm reel number: C-5026. Pages 961-1010

    I will see about the others later....
     
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  18. pamak

    pamak Junior Member

    No problem!

    Thank you for your help with the page numbers

    Since you are interested in the files that have not been digitized yet, let me give you the full list (for WWII period) that came from the search engine

    So, in addition of the file that I already posted, there are also


    War equipment tables. 1940/11-1942/03. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10074. File number: 13/TABLES/1/2.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15





    War equipment tables. 1944/08-1945/06. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10075. File number: 13/TABLES/1/6.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15



    War equipment tables. 1943/01-1943/09. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10074. File number: 13/TABLES/1/4.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15



    War equipment tables. 1942/03-1943/01. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10074. File number: 13/TABLES/1/3.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15



    War equipment tables. 1939/11-1940/11. File.
    RG24-C-2. Volume/box number: 10074. File number: 13/TABLES/1.
    Textual material. [Access: Open]. Government.
    Finding aid number: 24-15
     
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  19. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

    Part 1: Pages 4100-4249
    Part 2: Pages 4250-4707
    Part 3: Pages 4712-4996

    This file is the MF 26-1000 reference by so many other MF26-xxxx with lots of parts lists, clothing lists etc. Very interesting stuff but I haven't found a list of Signals equipment for vehicles yet. As per the description, Part 4 is missing and I will have to engage LAC to find out what/where is Job 30, Reel 26.
     
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  20. Pronto91

    Pronto91 Canadian Signals Researcher

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