What did the waffen ss do?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Dave--, Apr 22, 2006.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    The 9th & 10th SS Panzer Divisions defended Hill 112 in Normandy extremely well. A really nasty first battle for 43rd Wessex Division.They fought so hard that casualties were very heavy for the Wessex Div and
    The enemy suffered equally. The next year when there was an opportunity to compare notes with the 9th SS Panzer Division, it was revealed that in the battle for Hill 112 casualties reduced their strength to five or six per company. It is appropriate that the 43rd Division's memorial is at Hill 112, the object of so much bloodshed in the Normandy campaign

    Between 29 June, when the 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions regained the hill, and 23 July, when they were driven from Maltot, the area around Hill 112 changed hands many times and thousands of Allied and German troops were killed or wounded on its bloody slopes. The 43rd Division alone lost more than 2,000 men in the first 36 hours of operation JUPITER to regain Hill 112. It was reported that the Odon River was dammed with corpses
  2. Tyrulf

    Tyrulf Member

    Ayup Tyrulf!
    You say I'm right but I said I thought they could refuse and were generally NOT punished (Maybe a minor translation prob? your English still beats my total lack of any other language skills though:)). I knew the option to Shoot on site was there but I thought it wasn't usually applied at the cold-blooded organised murders, I thought a lot of Soldiers who refused to participate were allowed to walk away??

    oh yea .. :goodnight:

    its quite late and so I am afraid that my eyes lost sight of the not / blush

    I think that soldiers who resisted to discharge an instruction could be executed ,at least on paper , especially at the end of the war.
    But I think it was, as much was, up to the individual commander/officer to amerce or to conserve the single soldiers.
    So some refusers were allowed to walk away others were shot , it was up to the commander as far as I know.
  3. Marina

    Marina Senior Member

    Breaking the rules would have been a very real option, probably would have saved lives, but made us as bad as them and outside the law.

    As bad as the SS? That's barely possible

    You can no longer expect to be allowed to live if you try to surrender.

    The point is surely that you could not expect to live if you acceptd surrender from the SS.

    I know it's not all black & white, but what is more black and white than killing someone who is offering no resistance and trying to surrender.

    Given the SS's record, how could anyone possibly be sure that surrender was genuine?
  4. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    I have to agree with Owen D and 51highland on that one. Monte Cassino is just one case in point.
  5. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Apologies for not making my previous comment/ post clear - I am referring to the Fallschirmjager not the SS.
  6. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    oh yea .. :goodnight:

    its quite late and so I am afraid that my eyes lost sight of the not / blush

    I think that soldiers who resisted to discharge an instruction could be executed ,at least on paper , especially at the end of the war.

    There has been reported cases where individuals asked to be transfered because they could not carry out the intrustions given to them, especially in the einszatgruppen.
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Another quote from 43rd Wessex Div History gives an example of how the Waffen SS weren't all murderers.They did do things correctly .
    Page 180 end of Operation Clipper some men of the DCLI were taken Prisoner.

    The prisoners taken, except for a few stragglers, were all wounded. The enemy, who belonged to 10 SS Panzer Division apparently reinforced by two companies of 21 SS Panzer Division specially brought over from the east of the Wurm, treated them with kindness, expressed their admiration for the battalion's fight and commented ruefully on their own heavy losses.
  8. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    Other examples of SS troops bravery [source: http://www.bridgend-powcamp.fsnet.co.uk/]
    On 27 May 1940, SS-Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knochlein, commander of 14th Company of 2nd SS Infantry Regiment “Totenkopf”, ordered the execution of 100 British soldiers of the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Norfolk Regiment following their surrender at Le Paradis.
    Same campaign, 28 May 1940, SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke, commander of the 2nd Battalion of SS LAH Regiment, ordered the execution of about 80 British soldiers of the 2nd Battalion of Royal Warwickshire Regiment and other units after they surrendered near Warmhoudt.
  9. LuftwaffeFuehrer

    LuftwaffeFuehrer Junior Member

    The Waffen SS was an elite group of Germany(which everyone knows already)

    but what a lot of people don't really know is that the Waffen SS didn't
    do much as an offensive force up until Barbarrosa, where they were
    considere "Elite" soldiers by the allies
    but during the invasion of Poland and France(along with the low countries)
    the Waffen SS wasn't that much better than the regular Heer soldiers, other
    than commiting some autracities that have been already mentioned
    on this topic the Waffen SS didn't do anything during those campaings
    worth mentioning(not that those autracities are worth mentioning anyway)

    but if you compare the Fallschirmjaeger's to the Waffen SS, you would find
    that the Fallschirmjaeger were better trained and have a better combat
    record, and still fought bravely, and if you don't believe look up the battle of
    monte cassino, you will see what an outnumbered, outgunned
    fallschirmjaeger force did to the allies
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'd also place the FJ well above the SS in terms of deserved reputation, they fought in every theatre from war's beginning until the end. and in spite of their decimation at Kreta were still a useful formation until finally being practically destroyed in scattered Kampfgruppe during '45. Having Fatty Goring as a patron didn't do any harm to the levels of equipment supplied either. Rudolf Witzig seems to me the epitomy of the airborne soldier.
  11. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The Waffen SS. Dirty evil murdering thugs. I have wirnessed first hand their handiwork. That they put up a good fight was absolutely right, but I often wonder if that was more because they feared the retribution that would overtake them when captured.

    If we captured them, We watched them like hawks, for no dirty trick was beyond them. The waving a white flag to surrender, and then have them open fire on you as you went forward to take them prisoner.

    It was a trick they played a little too often. With what had gone before fresh in your mind....Would you take a bunch of SS prisoner? Or would you dish out the same medicine? Its a problem.

    I have said it before on here. I lit a cigarette, stuck it ib his mouth, put his hands on his head, and pointed the way back....One happy Wermacht member of the "master race" But not the SS.....No NO! They remained arrogant, and cheeky,

    I witness an infantry Sgt after taking a load of abuse from a captured SS hit him so hard that he was lifted completely off his feet.

    Typical of this is the official record of a pretty horrible and bloody assault at night. ...Note the term. "and the tables were turned"..It is very significant, The were SS.

    The Escaut Canal.
    Official Version.
    The blown bridge had crossed from Lille St Hubert north into the little village of Broek.The Sappers lost no time, 246 Field Company R.E. were responsible for building a class nine bridge. They had already lost Lieutenant Cadwallader, who had been killed with an anti-tank gun while reconnoitering the canal the previous afternoon. Lieutenants. Boyse. Field. Duncan, and Borrowman had crossed with the Assaulting companies. Borrowman was seriously wounded, and Sapper Smith who had been with him was taken prisoner, to be recaptured in Broek by the Ulster rifles, together with the five Germans and "Upon whom the tables were satisfactorily turned" Despite Enemy fire, construction of the bridge was begun at 1 am. It was open to traffic at 7am. Although still subject to sniping, also, some more boats had been sunk, and had to be replaced.
    Its span was 160 feet. Source? Official records.

  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    More SS POWs here.Link removed,bit dubious.

    Some of whom are 12th SS HitlerJugend Division.
    Surely the cockiest of cocky little sh*ts.
    Can anyone find the picture of the SS-Mann captured in Normandy who looks like he's had a good kicking? It's quite a famous picture.

    Attached Files:

  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    This bloke? From: http://www.servicepub.com/pictures.htm , more pictures of Captured SS in varying states from cocky to traumatised.

    This Kid always gives me the creeps too:
    Perfect example of the damage done to a whole Generation by idiots like Hitler intervening and indoctrinating in peoples childhoods.

    (Owen, that link above is dodgy, diverts you to an unpleasant registry scan site)
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    These look sh*t scared, almost makes you sorry for them.
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Is it me or does this look like Ralf Schumacher after a bad race?
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Is it me or does this look like Ralf Schumacher after a bad race?
    Nah, Ralf and Michael would definitely have been Fighter pilots, Michael the Knights Cross with Oakleaves holding Ace and Ralf the Overshadowed, less succesful Younger brother.
  18. BulgarianSoldier

    BulgarianSoldier Senior Member

    Waffen SS killed people and they fight :D
    I explane fast and good :)
  19. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    The German Soldier's Ten Commandments:

    While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard.

    Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited.

    No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.

    P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.

    Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum.

    Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities.

    The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.

    Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

    If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so.

    Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands.

    Lord Russell of Liverpool, C.B.E., M.S. The Scourge of the Swastika: A Short History of Nazi War Crimes, (New York: Ballantine Books, 1957), pp. 239-240.
  20. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Another word then, Plant pilot! you would not last long mate. Life is very precious and the nearer you are to losing it, the more precious it becomes.

    You mentioned the three that came forward to surrender....here I would point out that all of them would have to have conived in the action they took.
    If you deal in death then sometimes you get a bum hand!

    I can say with absolute conviction that there are no fairer troops than the British Tommy. I have iwtnessed great acts of kindness towards the wounded enemy. Even where a group of Tommies risked their own lives to help a wounded enemy.

    If you carry on war by murdering the prisoners? Then you have not a leg to stand on...Nothing! As to the 12th SS Hitler Youth Division? In my mind, and in the opinion of many. The toughest of all the German SS units. And oddly enough, our traditional enemies,They were the ones we were constantly up against...And the dirtiest.

    The crimes of the Waffen SS are legendary...Thankfully many died in the cauldron of the Falaise pocket. Where they met their just deserts.

    Unfortunately far too many got away... You cannot compare civilised behaviour in war with the SS.. The German Army OK... But what do you do with a ravenous beast intent on savaging anything and everything.

    You must also recall the "Hitler Edict" All Commandos captured to be shot in the field of battle. It is no wonder then that any one in danger of being caught, got rid of his commando knife.

    To show what dirty bastards they were, let me illustrate by posting an episode from the book I wrote "Cameos of War"

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