There are a lot of good posts on this thread, along with some spectacularly ill-informed ones. For a full account of Ireland's role in the war (telling you probably more than you ever wanted to know) see 'In Time of War' by Robert Fisk.
Well if Ireland was neutral, it didn't stop the Germans bombing Dublin, the Rathdown Park area of Dublin to be exact in early 1941. I can't give a link, but I can tell you it was on a British Pathe newsreel numbered 1067.06 and dated 13/01/1941. Now you could say that they bombed Dublin by accident, but you have to cross the whole of England, Wales and the Irish Sea to accidentaly be over Dublin.
Yes they did hit the Rathdown Park area, which is 5 minutes from my Home!!! No injuries as far as I know. They also hit the North Strand area of the City. But Dublin got away far more lightly that Belfast.
it was caused bu a compass error. The same excuse used by the security forces during the troubles, My cousin Frank, who was a SGT in the irish army, was wounded during a firefight caused by the the IRA crossing over the border. The paras focused upon him and his patrol and let the provos escape.
Compass error? Okay, being a little 'navigationaly challenged' may be an excuse for being on the wrong side of an unmarked rural border, but for bombing Dublin instead of Belfast? As for your cousin, as I mentioned, the border is mostly rural and not marked appart from markings on the road. So finding yourself on the wrong side of it is in no way unique. It was only in the mid 1980s that the Irish Security forces actually co-operated with any effectivness and allowed official border crossings for search and clearance operations. Before that, if you were trying to clear suspect devices on or near the border you couldn't check the other side for command wires, and that made life a whole lot more dangerous.
As i understand it, the Kampfgeshwader bombed Dublin in error because of interference from the British Meacon system. Not sure about this, as i would have to check the dates of when the Meacon's were set up, and when the Knickbein was active. If it was this, then it would explain why they bombed so far from their intended target. They were relying on the knickbein for a reliable drop point, but it was telling them they weren't there, hence the crossing of the Irish Sea in the wrong place. Lik i said, i would have to check the dates. Kitty.
Surely that, even if true, would only be a very poor excuse? Even if you are told by equipment that you are in the right place, you should be aiming at your target. Not just dumping boms. Wartime Belfast, being an important industruial town and dock, would have been in black out. Dublin, qa capital city in a neutral country would not have been. Quite an easy difference to spot from the air. But even if that slipped your notice, both cities are very near the coast, the one thing that is sure to be recognisable from the air and both cities being in very different situations compared to the coast. Dublin to the west of a wide cove and Belfast to the west of a long channel. Even a cursory look out of a windo would have made it clear that they were in the wrong place.
PP, i don't want to get in an argument about this, you are too damn good at them. (deep breath) However, i would like to argue my case about the knickbein. I am sure oyu know howit worked, the lead bombers flew along one continuous radio pulse, and when the tone changed at an intersection with a second pulse, they dropped their bombs. Very very accurate way to bomb, and as it all relied on the Jeep's say-so, and not the pilot or Nav, it was possible to send an entire fleet off in the wrong diretion and convince them to bomb in the wrong country. There was a well documented case of a trainee German pilot in France, along with his very experienced instructor, practising on the kickbein. The beam at the time was being 'masked' by the British Meacon system, and so the poor saps flew in the wrong direction without realising it. They thought they were over Spain, when in fact they were over France, and so turned in the wrong direction and crossed what they thought was the Bay of Biscay on their way home. In fact they made landfall in Southern England where the beam was masked by successive Meacon stations until the instructor ordered him to land, believing they were still in France. They landed near to Southsea (I think) and were very surprised to find the RAF waiting for them. All of this was done in bright summer sunlight. So an entire bomb stream at night? Yep, i think it's entirely possible. Kitty
There was no argument. I never said it wasn't possible, or that it didn't happen. My point was that to rely on a single system 100% is folly in any enterprise. You wouldn't follow a compass bearing on a march mile after mile, without checking that the features on the ground, or landmarks encountered are the ones that the map says you are expecting. The same goes for the use of GPS, confirmation with a map and/or compass is good practice. Looking out the window while flying is always the best practice and checking your location on the ground to make sure that you are where the system says you are is as much a confirmation for your own safety as anything else. Other options like checking the stars, checking the compass bearing to make sure it's the one that is expected etc is the least I'd expect from a navigator. They were after all on a dangerous mission over enemy territory. If they were in trouble or were shot down they'd need to know roughly where they were so they would know how far they could decend safely if they needed to. So I'm not saying that isn't what happened, just that if it was, it's either a very bad excuse, or shows very bad skills in their aircrews.
Why not, it worked perfectly for Coventry. Suggest you read Most Secret War by Prof R V Jones. Aye MalcolmII
Cheers for the support Malcolm! PP, it's like this, the knickbein didn't work on compasses. It worked purely on radio waves being broadcast at a set degree of the compass to pass over the bomb area. A second beam would be produced elswhere and angled so it crossed the master beam over the site to be bombed. When this was picked up by the radio operator, they bombed. Yes, it should always be double checked against the compass/maps/stars, but Germany at this point did not know we were bending, or masking, the beacons, and so sending bombers way off course. All it would have taken is some simple checking, and someone in the lead bombers having the guts to ignore the knickbein, to drop the bombs on the right target. It wasn't until later that the germans realised what was happening and started to change the radio frequencies for each raid, which kept the Meacons on their toes. Even if the germans changed their bomb lines,the main meacon stations were augmented by mobile stations (a van with a whacking great aerial attached) which could move where needed to strengthen the signal. It was no wonder the German bomber crews thought they could rely solely on the knickbein, how could they know it was being masked by us? It was so good that we had our own versions, Oboe and Gee. Like i said, i would have to check the dates, which are buried somewhere deep in the hard drive, to be sure if this was the possible cause. But it was possible to send bombers so far off target that they bombed the wrong city or country. Kitty
Yes, I acknowledge that in an ideal world Knickerbein would be a perfect system. However. May I firstly point out that if you are flying along the primary beam, waiting for the secondary one to indicate the target, you are in effect flying along a compass bearing. If that's not what you were expecting there may be a problem. A simple, quick and effective check to make, agreed? Secondly, would you fly into enemy territory along a radio signal without any back-up? It's radio technology which at the time wasn't 100% reliable. It's wartime the transmitter could be attacked, have a tech problem, power failure or even just a dozy operator. If the signal suddenly stops, you'd want to know where you were in order to navigate back home, even if you ignore the target wouldn't you? I'd hope so. Or are you telling me that you'd be quite happy to fly off over the enemy territory without knowing where you are or where the target is? If that's the case I'm glad you aren't anywhere near any unit I've served in as in my opinion you're an incident looking for a grid reference. But, when you found it you wouldn't know where it was anyway would you?^_^
