Sword Beach.

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Trux, May 4, 2012.

  1. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Stevie,

    That information makes sense. The First Lieutenant's place for the landing was in the bows. He supervised the lowering of the ramp, checked the depth of water and gave the order for the vehicles to land.

    Mike
     
  2. Stevie,

    The Report by Naval Commander Force S Group 7, of which LCT 945 was part, states:

    "L.C.T. 945, Tempy. Lieut. J. YOUNG, R.N.V.R. made a good beaching under heavy mortar fire and unloaded his vehicles successfully. On leaving the beach he fouled a Teller mine which Midshipman C.E.C. JONES, R.N.V.R., since reported missing, believed drowned, displayed great courage in clearing."

    The Report is dated 30th June, 1944, so this fits with the date (22 June) when Craddock Jones was reported as missing, believed drowned, perhaps because of the big storm that hit the Channel during 19-22 June:
    http://climate-ocean.com/2013/7_4.html

    I'm quite sure that if the mine had exploded, this would have been recorded in the above report.

    "Mr. Craddock Jones, Temporary Midshipman, R.N.V.R. (Abergwynfi, Glamorgan)" received a Mention in Despatches (Posthumous) "for gallantry, skill, determination and undaunted devotion to duty during the landing of Allied Forces on the coast of Normandy" on 14th November, 1944.

    Michel
     
  3. Arty

    Arty Member

    Folks,

    On the subject of the stranded DD & Austin K5, Mike may indeed be correct. The Lorry probably does belong to 3 CLY and this may indeed be the Gold area & not Sword.

    We have believed for years that 8th armoured Brigade only had Sherman II DDs. However it may have actually deployed a mix of Sherman II DDs and a few Sherman V DDs on the day. Thanks (again) to Pak75 who posted this a few weeks ago:

    "According to a letter 17 May 1944 from RAC, brigades had following DDs:

    8th Armd Bde (Gold) 80 M4A1 + 5 M4A4..."

    We know for sure that DDs were lost in pre D-Day training. 8th Armoured Brigade may have had no choice but to utilise all it had.

    Arty
     
  4. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    From my own as yet unposted work on Gold.

    'It is known that there were not sufficient Sherman MkV (alias M4A4) DD tanks and the two regiments landing on Gold were issued with 80 Sherman MkII (alias M4A1) DD from US sources and five Sherman MkV DD. It was intended that these would provide 20 DD tanks per squadron plus a reserve of five in case of breakdown and loss in training. In the event it seems that only 19 per squadron were actually landed'.

    It seems fairly certain that some Sherman V landed on Gold and quite likely that all five were landed (assuming that none were lost beforehand).

    Mike
     
  5. Of course we're not absolutely sure of anything, but according to the tank states by Peter Brown 8AB only had Sherman II DDs in June 1944. This might cover only the tank counted as per the War Establishment, and not some possible 'reserve' tanks or leftovers from the training phase, but the result is the same as for those landed:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20010410004711/http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-1.htm

    I don't have any of the War Diaries for the 8AB DD Regts on D Day or before, so can't check whether they might mention the DDs types, but from Pak75's letter of 17 May 44 one might indeed wonder whether some of the DDs surviving the training phase might have been Mk.Vs... No.42 would have been a 'B' Sqn HQ tank, probably that of the 2nd Capt. If KING Sector it is (where the main body of 3 CLY landed on 7 Jun), then it would belong to 4/7 DG.

    Plus it might be a Canadian DD, since their turret number marking schemes are not crystal clear after all either (contrary with what I wrote in my post above)!

    Michel
     
  6. StevieS

    StevieS New Member

    Mike and Michel

    I thought going by the dates of the letters that I had received off my uncle that he had probably drowned during the big storm.

    Apparently his uniform had been sent home to his mother a few weeks earlier as he had been thrown into the sea . I remember seeing his officers cap when I was a boy as it was given to my mother.

    Again many thanks as I can now pass this information onto my mother and my uncle
     
  7. Arty

    Arty Member

    Michel, Mike et al

    The 21st Army Group June 44 tank tally does indeed indicate 76 Sherman II DDs with 8 Armd Bde. However it also mentions just 76 Sherman V DDs with the Canadians, when we know that they deployed 78 on the day - not to mention the probability of 13/18 Hussars having deployed 2 spares as well.

    I'm thinking the June 44 document actually reflected what the senior 'bean counters' of the day were after.

    Meanwhile we finally have a photo of a 'spare' Sherman DD. Now we just have to find one in the Sword area. It would fit nicely on this thread, I'm absolutely sure of that. ;)

    Arty
     
  8. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    When I was there in 44 the beach was closed shortly after,The guns of Le Havre were playing havoc, so it was abandobd as a supply beach.
     
  9. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Just bumping this thread so that Sliben can find it.

    Mike
     
  10. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Gents
    8 Armd Bde war diary and those of the regiments are not very helpful.
    The 8 Armd Bde diary has a weekly state by 75mm Sherman only whilst the regiments do not give their daily tank states at all.
    Perversely, the 4/7 RDG war diary says that the two DD sqdns had Mark V DDs..... (5th June).
    I am inclined to regard this as a mistake.

    Peter Brown's numbers come from the tables of UE and reserve holdings in RAC Progress Report no. 9 (and 8 Armd Bde has Mark II DD); it is therefore of theoretical holdings only.

    Will check further when I have a bit more time - i have a book introduction to write now.

    Cheers
     
  11. Hi John,

    Looking back at this thread, US LCI(L) 13 could not have been LTIN 412 which was US LCI(L) 12. Additionally, LCI(L) 13 was part of Group 14 which had LTIN 417 to 424.

    Therefore US LCI(L) 13 was LTIN 417, and thus probably the leading ship of Group 14.

    Michel
     
  12. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    Hi Trux, This doesn't quiite match what is in the 80 Bde AA Op Order, Routledge.or the notes Will Townsend made

    "Air defence of the beach area was the responsibility of 73 LAA Regiment. BC 218 LAA Bty and four guns each of A and C Tps landed on Queen White and Red respectively at H+45 (0810 hrs) along with the OC G Tp, 322 Bty.

    218 battery were part of 73 LAA Regiment and equipped with SP 40mm bofors. 322 Battery was from 93 Light AA Regiment, under command 73 LAA equipped with 18 x 20mm aa mguns (9 x crusader SP) and deployed on the first two tides. Where do they appear on the landing table? The 20mm were landed early on Juno but I only see a jeep (recce?) here .
     
  13. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    322 Battery.

    I have four guns, two SP and 2 towed, landing at H+360 minutes from LCTs. Remainder landing from LSTs from H+16 hours. So all on first two tides but not early.

    Mike
     
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

  15. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    Below are the landing times for 322 Battery.

    Regards

    Danny

    322.jpg
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    That is interesting.

    This is very interesting.

    Annex J to RA 3 Brit Inf Div Operation Order No 1 Dated 15 May 1944 : Allocation and Tasks of Beach AA has

    Serial 1 two tps 73 LAA Regt 12 x 40mm -six tracked six trailer on RED and WHITE beaches, under command for landing of 8 Inf Bde and movement 5 Beach Gp 1st flight Tide i, appr 45 45 mins 8 guns -balance H plus 120 mins

    Serial 2 One tp 93 LAA 6 x 20mm triple - three tracked three trailer on RED and WHITE beaches, under command for landing of 185 Brigade Group and movement 5 Beach Group to land about H plus 120-195.

    This may just be a quibble, but H +360 looks like quite a lot longer. . I cannot find any amendments to this schedule in the file (but I only can find amendments 4 and 5 to the OPO),

    What exactly is the source you are quoting? Why is this a more definitive version of the plan compared to the Div Op Order?
     

    Attached Files:

  17. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    Below are some more landing times up until H + 320. This information is from the unit War Diary.

    There is also a 26 page OP Instruction No. 1 for “M” & “N” AA Assault Gps covering “M” & “N” AA Assault Gps will provide AA protection of craft and shipping unloading off Queen sector, also beach exits in this WD.

    In one section that covers the order units are to land in only G Tp 322 are to land on the 1st tide. No times are given in this section of the document, day and tides only.

    Regards

    Danny

    73  LAA.jpg
     
  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    I can't lay my hands on a copy of that table. These are the notes Will Townend took from the 73 LAA Regt War Diary

    6 Jun H+45 OC 218, A/218 (less two guns), C/218 (less two guns) and on White and Red beaches respectively at H+45 (0810) on time. Beach under heavy fire. OC A Tp (Capt Dale) wounded by mortar in arm & evac after completing recce. BC also wounded in hand. Remaining guns of A Tp land at H+240 (1125), and C Tp at H+120 (0925)
    All guns in action by H+300 (1225) BHQ estb first lateral by H+360 (1325) CO wit R Gp landed at H+240 (1125) and set up AARC at Beach CP.
    RMO landed at H+60 (0825) was wounded and set up a BDS (Beach DS?) in a German strongpoint. In view of RAMC cas medical orderlies of A & C Tps 218 Bty were called in. BDS continued to function for next two days until it was absorbed into the FDS and moved inland.
    2IC and RGp landed at H+530 (1615 – 200 mins late (1255)) recced RHQ which was estb at HQ 101 BSA by 1930.
    OC 220 Bty and RGp landed at H+530 (1615 – 200 mins late (1255)) but recce of the area allotted was impossible as the ground was still in en hands. BHQ eventually estb with RHQ.
    recced RHQ which was estb at HQ 101 BSA by 1930.
    OC G Tp 322 Bty landed at H+45 and carried out recce. First guns began to come ashore at H+430 (1435) and were all inaction by H+510 (1555). Also recced H & I Tp posns as recce parties had not arrived.
     
  19. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    The times I posted came from “Appendix B - Landing Times” in the WD.

    Email on the way to you.

    Regards

    Danny
     
  20. Poetrydad1

    Poetrydad1 New Member

    This is an interesting day in my research into my dad, Charles Peaslee's, SM 1/c, WW2 service record. He spent most of his service time on the LCI(L)-13 until sometime after D-Day. In March of 1944 many of the LCI(L)'s (about 17) under the command of Lt Cdr W.W. Ayres, Flotilla 2, were then assigned to British Force S, groups 14 and 15, (supplementing British LCI(L)) under the command of Britiish Adm. Vian to operate at SWORD beach during the invasion.
    Up until now I have found little information, directly about the LCI(L)-13. I know that 190 of the earlier LCI(L)s were turned over to the British in October of 1944 under the lend-lease act. The LCI(L) 13 was sailed to Malaysia to participate in British Amphibious assaults. In May of 1946 it was returned to the US in the Philippines. Susequently the (134) was sold to a Chinese business man.

    Any information you have would be greatly appreciated. Bruce A. Peaslee
     

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