RAF Mobile Signals Unit 5140 Q William Wortley LAC 1428270

I find by looking at documents on Fold 3, books on my shelf and a bit of googling that the Americans were installing SG2 radar sets near Cherbourg in the last week of July and at Granville shortly afterwards.

SG2 came in various forms but was also used by the RAF as AI MkX. It is described as a naval search set capable of spotting submarines at 15 miles and periscopes at 5 miles.

Is it a coincidence that LAC Wortley was at Cherbourg, Granville and Walcheren when these sets were being installed?

Mike

 

Hi Mike

So you finally sorted out subscribing to Fold3 - I was told by Ancestry they had nothing to do with it that they were totally seperate, until I pointed out that Ancestry bought the company that runs Fold3, so that as I was already a paying subscriber to Ancestry my access to Fold3 should in theory be free - - theory v's practise eh

AI Mk. VIII radar - Wikipedia
Naval use
Years later, Lovell learned that an adaptation of the Mk. IX system had also been tested aboard Motor Gun Boats in 1942 and it had been found that they would successfully track other boats and allow blind-fire of a 2 pounder with reasonable accuracy.[98]


Looks like our man was either an exceptional 'engineer' in setting these systems up or had a natural ability to read what the system was telling him, therefore he was in high demand - another theory

TD

 

TD.

Lots of radars. I still have not quite got the full details of the naval radars used on the Normandy beaches. I thought I had a set of photos but they turned out to be a high power transmitter/receiver unit for cross channel RN communications.

Fold 3 is good for War Diaries of US warships and for Admiralty documents. Hard work searching though. Cherbourg brought up 800+ documents.

RE: LAC Wortley. It puzzled me immediately that a direction finding unit (even a mobile one) should be moving all over the Cotentin. Direction Finders are by nature static since all their readings depend on their own position being accurately known.

Thanks for your information on GCI. I have visited the site but not seen that document.

Mike

 

Hi guys! These latest posts sound fascinating but I never learned Greek!! What does SG2, Fold 3, A1MkX, A1MkV111 mean .. in simple terms for a non tekky person . Thx!!
Aileen

 

Fold3 is a part of the Ancestry and allows a paying subscriber to access and read files that have been digitised in NARA [the equivalent in the USA of The National Archives in Kew London]

AI (Not A1) stands for Airborne Interception, which was a means of using radar both from the ground and later mounted in aircraft to see other aircraft - what is used today and even used in cars now to 'see' obstacles ahead
AI Mk. VIII radar - Wikipedia - some Mks were specifically made for naval use to spot small boats or submarine periscopes

SG 2 is another type of radar [S-Band – 8-15 cm (4-2 GHz)] - Radar in World War II - Wikipedia
See :
2.2.2 S-Band airborne
2.2.3 S-Band Army Gun-Laying
2.2.4 S-Band Navy Search

I am no radar expert others may be able to explain better than I
TD

 

The essential point is that US Navy SG2 and RAF AI MkX are almost identical radars and in the cases we are interested in here are being used for the same purpose, watching for small naval craft, submarines or submarine periscopes.

US Navy radars are either S for search or F for fire control (guns). Second letter is for various developments from A to K as far as I know. The same basic radar could be modified for other uses, in this case as Airborne Interception radar or AI. The British used the same set with its own RAF designation and type numbers as AI Mark X (or 10).

Mike

 

A few more questions ... if you can face them!!
1. My father did most of his training at North Weald, Martlesham, Cranwell, Chigwell etc. I did see in the RAF Timeline website that 5140Q was in some place in Yorkshire for training in April 44... but there is never any written references to where he trained in the first six months of 1944 in his diary. Wondered if they were advised to be cautious about committing anything to writing? Also would their training involve working with the wireless equipment on planes on the ground?
2. His diary finishes as he heads home the first week in 1945 having been drawn first for leave. However we know he returned and was in Germany ( stories told included going through Belsen not long after it was liberated). what would have been the focus of his duties there?
3. Were all people landing in Normandy issued with some emergency francs? I saw a reference to some people receiving them.
Thank you once again .

 

Sky,

3. All personnel landing in France were issued with 200 francs. The exchange rate was set at 200 francs equals one pound sterling. The use of sterling and dollars was forbidden since this could lead to black markets in currency. The francs issued were specially printed, in the USA, and were deliberately different to 'genuine' francs.

On leaving France and entering Belgium currency was supposed to be converted, again to combat black market currency exchange.

2. Belsen is difficult. Many accounts mention it but only medical staff would have worked in the concentration camp. Inmates were treated and removed and the camp destroyed to prevent disease spreading. Many British personnel worked in the displaced persons camp at Belsen. This held tens of thousands of people who had to be processed, fed, treated etc.

1. The keeping of a diary was actually forbidden.

Mike

 

Thx Mike for that information. The keeping of a diary was forbidden? Everywhere or just training? Perhaps that is why his entries are so brief!
As for Belsen, I had used it really as one of the examples to show my father was In Germany ... and I saw 15081 did continue on there. I am not sure he did much more than pass through the Belsen area for a day or so. I did not know about the displaced person's camp. Thx

 

I know many people did keep a diary but all information was restricted. Imagine the consequences if he and the diary were captured.

Come to think of it I have signed the Official Secrets Act so perhaps I should impound it.

Mike.

 

Can you unsign it?? - after all the info I know would be of no use to anyone today

Just a thought

TD

 

No time limit TD. Sorry.

In fact what you know is of great use to us.

Mike

 

Sky,

I see I misread your sentence. You ask what duties the unit would have in Germany not at Belsen. The short answer is that they had the same duties. 2 Tactical Air Force would remain on guard in Germany until the 1990s.
In the uncertain post war world air defence remained an important safeguard.

Mike

 

I have spent a happy time looking through what material I have on US Army, US Navy and 2 Tactical Air Force but have found nothing which helps much with the role of 5140 MSU. I have learned a lot about US activity in the Cotentin Peninsular.

Reading the reports of the US units responsible for operating ports on the Cotentin Peninsular I find that:

Cherbourg started receiving shipping on 18 July although it then had little in the way of facilities. Ships were unloaded by DUKW and barges. By the end of October it had 21 berths for Liberty ships and similar, 9 berths for coasters, 2 berths for train ferries and I berth for tankers.

Barfleur opened on 16 July and operated until 20 October when bad weather bad working difficult.

St Vaast opened on 23 July and worked until 19 October.

Granville opened on 31 July and continued to work until after VE Day. It handled only coal.

Throughout a major concern was the threat of air attacks from Brittany and attacks on shipping from Brittany and the Channel Islands. This concern was shown to be real when a German raid launched from the Channel Islands landed at Granville in March 1945. Considerable damage was done to the harbour and shipping and there were casualties to US forces.

Mike

 

Thanks for that added info.. I will review it with a map in hand. Like you I have been happily occupied beginning my essay and pulling together all the stuff you and the other members have provided but its slow!! I just found this from another part of the site.. so nice when bits of info jibe

1. Quite right Mike, 15082 GCI that landed on Omaha was initially described as AMES 15082. There was also an RAF GCI Unit (15081) that progressed along various coastal sites, in line with the advancing front line, ending up on top of the Casino in Blankenberg (Belgium) for hostile surface vessel surveillance, passing the info directly to Royal Navy for surface interception. This GCI was eventually installed on the top of Westkapelle lighthouse on Walcheren Island to oversee the West Schelt approach to Antwerp. They had a good "haul" of enemy e-boats. Later on in the campaign, just after its installation there, I did a service visit to this GCI and spent nearly a fortnight there before returning to 309MSSU, by then HQ'd in Brussels.
Glad to be of service, Ted.
Thanks again.
aileen

 

Aileen,

A small snippet which might make sense. You say at the back of the diary there is an entry
LC 1
LC 12
LCT
LST Maud Landing Ship

This makes sense if it actually says
LCI Which is a Landing Craft Infantry carrying 200 personnel
LCI 2 ditto
LCT Tank Landing Craft needed for large radar vehicles.
LST Tank Landing Ship carrying 80 to 100 vehicles.
Maud Landing Ship. Princess Maud an ex Cross Channel ferry used as a small personnel transport.

This group would carry a GCI unit plus many other personnel.

I thought it would be relatively easy to find a reference to Princess Maud. It was but it spent most of its time running between Weymouth to the US beaches with a short time running from Newhaven to British beaches. It is not possible to pinpoint the date of this group from the documents available to me.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,
Well, I may have led you on a wild goose chase. I do not know where I got the Maud from ( surely I didn't make it up as I haven't heard of Maud before in that sort of context!!). When I look at the original diary entry with a high power magnifier it doesn't mention Maud
The last two mentioned are LCT Landing craft tank and LST Landing Ship Tank. The list of vehicles is bracketed by a large sign like the spade sign on a deck of playing cards. Sorry if I have misled you.
I see there is a Ted liking some of the information you and others have provided. I wonder if he is the same Ted who sent that older thread that I quoted above. He said he was there for a fortnight and wondered if he had any insight re 5140 Q?
Thank you for your ongoing efforts... it means a lot...
aileen

 

Don't worry. I have learnt a lot by going on a wild goose chase. I found the sailing orders for personnel convoys in the Admiralty War Diary and know where there is a great deal of other fascinating information hiding.

Ted is indeed the same one. He is following this thread so I will only say that he is a retired Warrant Officer RAF and knowledgeable about vehicles and radars.

Mike

 

I finally got to speak to my nephew who was given the pictures I had posted sometime ago of radar equipment that was apparently German and the truck that Dad used. Well he couldn't explain the truck being American except to say the Brits amongst different units lost quite a lot and the Americans seemed to have more equipment. As to the radar he says he remembers my father saying that amongst their duties they went into airports recently vacated by the Germans and replaced the radar and that's where he took the pics. Does that make any sense? These fellows seemed to be jack of all trades.

 

That does make sense. The Direction Finding unit was small and mobile. It could set up its aerial and be ready in minutes. A captured airfield would need some means of tracking approaching aircraft, especially ones own, and guiding them to it. Air Traffic Control. As long as the aircraft was transmitting the DF unit could give an accurate direction, but not range or height. It would pass information to a control room, which was able to speak to the aircraft.

The German radar in the photos is however a static GCI radar and not likely to be found on an airfield.

Mike