Hello All, I am new to this forum here so let me give a small introduction, I am Chris Goossens living in the Netherlands and am a collector of military aviation collectibles such as ejection-seats, intruments and RAF memorabilia. Recently I aquired a RAF jacket dated 1962, belonging to a Flight Lieutenant G.F.Hicks. Besides a Navigator Wing, the jacket also sports five medal ribbons of WW2 campaigns and one "order of merit" ribbon. I have been trying to find information regarding this F/Lt on the net and did find a match, a G.F.Hicks, flying with the 466th Squadron RCAF, whio also received the Order of Merit. Now, I know that these RCAF squadrons, like the French and Dutch squadron comprised of both foreign and RAF personnel. However the article I found on the net stated that this F/Lt Hicks was Captaining a Wellington bomber on the flight that earned him the Order of Merit. My question is if anyone knows if it was possible for a RAF Navigator to captain a plane??? Is it possible that the highest ranking officer (not necessary the pilot) was the plane-captain??? Hoping someone might know the answer..... Cheers, Chris
Welcome aboard the good ship WW2Talk.com Nowadays, it is possible for non-pilots to be captains. However, in the RAF during WW2, I do not know about the RCAF, it was the pilot who was captain. it is interesting that Bomber Harris wanted all pilots to be commisioned as in his opinon to have a entire NCO crew resulted in a "Mothers union" when it came to decsions! There is the famous example of a crew of a Halifax, where the pilot was a F/Sgt but the Wop was a Wing Commander.
Thanks for the info!!!! Another question is if there is a way to track down old RAF personnel in archives or so....would anyone know where to start or if there are websites with such information? Cheers, Chris.
Hi I think the person you are seeking is Edward Francis Hicks who was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal and the Distinguished Flying Cross whilst with 466 Sqn, which was a Royal Australian rather than Royal Canadian Air Force Squadron. Just to confuse matters he was actually with the Auxillary Air Force. He was commissioned from Sgt. (846405) to Pilot Officer on 18/5/43, Promoted Flying Officer 18/11/43 and Flight Lieutenant 18/5/45 (although he may have had acting ranks before those dates). Hope this helps Eddie
One such incident occured on April 14th when a Wellington captained by Sergeant G.F. Hicks was attacked by a night-fighter and severly damaged. During the battle the tail-gunner, R.F. Field, was killed and three others wounded. Despite suffering serious wounds and having a seriously damaged aircraft the crew elected to press on and bomb the target, Stuttgart. After the drop they made the long return flight to England, making a safe landing at one of the emergency fields. The tenacity of this crew was rewarded with Sergeant Hicks was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for his determination and three of the four surviving crew being all awarded the DSO, DFC and DFM. This event was unusual considering the numbers of one crew being all decorated. Their rewards represented the first to members of 466 squadron. 466 sqn - Sgt Hicks
It was rare for the navigator to be Captain in the RAF in WW2 but did happen occasionally, though I can't think of specific examples. It did mean that if the crew had to bale out, the Nav felt he had to stay with the pilot even though it wasn't technically necessary for him to do so. However, in the Luftwaffe it was the norm for the Observer to be the Captain in multiseat bombers. He would have qualified as a pilot and graduated to the position of obsever/captain. This policy tended to lapse as the war progressed and they became short of crews. Adrian
During the Second World War in the Royal Air Force,the captain of an aircraft irrespective of rank was the person occupying the left hand seat.The captain's responsibility was placed on the specialist with the most important role in the aircraft.Even if a Station Commander flew as a"second dickey"as a second pilot was referred to,or as a "spare bod", the pilot was the captain.He was responsible for the well being of his aircraft and crew and was the person who was charged with the responsibility of delivering and executing the operation.By the very nature of the dynamic workload imposed on the pilot,it was not practical to share this responsibility with any other member of the crew.It was the person in the left hand seat who decided to press on to the target or abort an operation.As all effective "managers" with dynamic decisions in an emergency he had the option, after assessing the state of the aircraft,the state of the crew and their ability to complete an operation, of conferring with the crew if time allowed.Not altogether an autocratic approach because in the end the performance of the crew depended on their motivation and a degree of the sharing of decision making where that was possible.However nothing could dilute the the fundamental responsibility that the pilot had by being in sole charge of the aircraft. On the 4 engine heavies,the pilot was aided by specialists such as Flight Engineer,Navigator,Wireless Operator,Bomb Aimer and Gunners.These designations were those in use at the war's end and certain of them had been subject to change of title as the war had progressed.Nevertheless all these roles, irrespective of rank, were subordinates while in the air to the man in the left hand seat who could have a rank no lower than Sgt. The Luftwaffe approach to the appointment of an aircraft's captain was on a the hierarchy basis that the aircrew member having the highest aircrew rank was the captain.This system does appear to have inherent disadvantages in the leadership role in the air as the Royal Air Force evaluated it.It appears to be based on the traditional military culture and an example of maintaining the status quo.
Originally posted by Harry Ree@Feb 16 2005, 11:06 AM During the Second World War in the Royal Air Force,the captain of an aircraft irrespective of rank was the person occupying the left hand seat.The captain's responsibility was placed on the specialist with the most important role in the aircraft.[post=31552]Quoted post[/post] After checking with the various journels of the RAF Historical Society the RAF did have Observers as well, who it seems could be aircraft captains as well. The trade of Oberserver was phased out and many re-trained as "radar observer" then they were made Navigator. That could explain why Hicks was captain but not a pilot In addition, "Britian's Wonderful Fighting Forces" By Captain Ellison Hawks RA it speaks of Observers thusly on p103, "he is skilled in navigation, photography, gunnery and bomb aiming and even has some knowledge of radio although wireless operating is a branch with which an observer is not closely concerned" After reading about it, it spurred my memory as the last "Observer" in flying duties was a Master observer based at Wattisham who flew in the back seat of a Phantom. He retired in 1975
The RAF flying designation "Observer" was a prewar role which had connections in the RFC.The introduction of the 4 engined heavies led to a restructuring of the crew duties and responsibilities.The Observer's responsibility covered both those of navigation and the release of bombs when crewing,say a Hampden and often the Observer might undertake the role of a second pilot.He would never be the captain of the aircraft. By the end of 1942 the Observer's role had been split into the role of Navigator and Bomb Aimer sometimes termed Air Bomber.Likewise the Hampden third and fourth members of the crew were designated Wireless Operator /Air Gunner.This role was rationalised into Wireless Operator and Airgunner and reflected the crew structure on 4 engined heavies.Observers who had passed out as such, post 1942 still carried the Observer brevet but were performing the Bomb Aimer role or the Navigator role depending on their remustering to these sole duties.
often the Observer might undertake the role of a second pilot.He would never be the captain of the aircraft. I would be interested to see your source from this, since it is at odds with the experiences of those members of the RAF Histoprical Society who were Observers.
Hi All, Thanks for all the information. Still in doubt though wheter the jacket I have could have belonged to the RAAF (or RAF attached to a RAAF Sqd) Hicks, especially since the name suppoedly is Eddie Hicks, thus not the GF Hicks that is in my jacket. I have attached some pictures of the jacket together with the tag inside it which also has a number on it. I don't know wheter this is the order number for the jacket or his service number...would anyone here know. So far I have identified all the ribbons as being: 1. 1939-45 Star 2. France and Germany Star 3. Defence Medal 4. War Medal 1939-45 5. Order of Merit Would anyone be able to give me some more info based on the pics??? Cheers, Chris
If the No. is a Service No. then it belonged to F/Lt. M.H.D. Cockayne during the war which doesn't help one bit with your quest. Cheers Eddie
I would be interested to see your source from this, since it is at odds with the experiences of those members of the RAF Histoprical Society who were Observers. [post=31570]Quoted post[/post] [/quote] The practice has been long standing in the Royal Air Force.It is confirmed in the following titles: Bomber Command by Max Hastings. RAF Bomber Command 1936-1968 by Chris Ashworth. Incidentally the rank, "Master" was introduced about 1953 to replace that of Warrant Officer for Warrant Officer flying designations. Regarding the uniform,it might well be that the personal details of the officer is still on record at the tailors if they are still trading.Officers had the responsibility of buying their own uniforms.
The term Observer dates from WW1. The Fleet Air Arm never dropped it and still have Observers to this day. Adrian
AEROPLANE, 20 March 1935. COMMAND IN THE AIR A pronouncement of considerable significance is conbtained in a recent mendment to King's Regulations and Air Council Instructions to the Royal Air Force. This amendment defines the status of various members of the crew of any Service aircraft. By it one pilot, who must be a qualified pilot in the type of machine concerned, will be detailed by the officer responsible for authorizing the flight as "captain of aircraft". The captain of aircraft will have authority, irrespective of rank, over all the occupants of the machine in all matters concerning the flying or handling thereof, and will be entirely responsible for the safety of the aircraft both in the air and on the ground or water, until he reports on conclusion of the flight to the officer who issued orders for the flight, or his deputy. He is also responsible, if he lands on ground other than an Air Force aerodrome, or, if in a flying boat, at a point on the coast where there is no Air Force station, for the proper protection and safeguarding of his machine. In recent years the increasing proportion of airmen to officer pilots in the RAF has given rise to the impression that large multi-place aeroplanes and flying boats will in course of time be flown by a junior officer or airman pilot under the command of the senior officer of the crew who would be responsible for navigation and everything else except the actual handling of the machine just as a captain is reponsible at sea although he does not steer the ship. In spite of petulant public utterances of certain people who would have the ignorant masses believe that senior officers in the RAF do not fly, those officers whose rank and appointments require them to take command of multi-place aircraft are in fact qualified first pilots and can and do, therefore, act as "captains of aircraft". For instance, there are a good many flying boat, bomber-transport and long range bomber squadrons commanded by officers of the rank of Wing Commander and even Group Captain, who not only command the squadron but fly as first pilots in the machines of their commands. The new regulation will be an added incentive to senior officers to keep in flying practice and in touch with all the latest developments in air pilotage, otherwise they will find themselves in the position of being in command of a squadron without the authority to fly as first pilot in one of the machines of their command. Another amendment to King's Regulations defines the authority of the instructor in any dual-control machine in which instruction is being given. According to this amendment the instructor has authority, irrespective of rank, over the pupil or second pilot to whom instruction is being given, in all matters concerning the flying or handling of the aeroplane. Where a "captain of aircraft" is required to be detailed, the instructor shall be so detailed. This amendment is the result of an unfortunate accident several years ago in which a flying boat and several members of its crew were lost while a senior officer was being instructed by a junior officer. The amended regulation has been in force for some time but has only now been published. The above is a recent posting from another site and I add it (unamended) for interest Cheers Eddie
Very late to the party on this one, but someone said they didn't know of any specific examples. I can give you one, my father, I.H. "George" Stevenson was a navigator in 502 Squadron (Coastal Command) during the war, and he was the captain on most flights he took from October 1944 onwards.
The German system actually dates from pre WW1. At this time the pilot was regarded as a sort of flying chauffeur whose job was to get the observer where he needed to go. Prior to WW1 the main function of a warplane was recce. The system was used in the RFC and the French air arm as well as the German. Training the observer originally took longer than training the pilot. However increasingly in the British and French services the pilot became the man in charge. In the German service it was normal for the captain of a multi engined bomber (like the Gothas) not to be the pilot. This carried on into WW2 and the aircraft captain did not always have pilot training indeed more often not.
