Panther turrets on the Gothic Line

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Owen, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    After seeing these photos on IWM website of Panther turrets wondered if we could get some discussion going on them.

    General Sir Harold Alexander (right), with Lt General Leese and Lt General Harding, inspect one of the German Panther tank turrets which formed part of the Gothic Line defences, September 1944.
    [​IMG]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. © IWM (NA 18349)IWM Non Commercial Licence


    A German Panther tank turret which was abandoned before being emplaced in a defensive position on the Gothic Line, 3 September 1944.
    [​IMG]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. © IWM (NA 18345)IWM Non Commercial Licence
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Not a lot of people know this*, but as well as conventional turrets mounted in this sockelafette stylee, there was actually an entirely separate model of Panther turret specifically for such fortifications.
    To quote myself from elsewhere (probably taken from Neil Short's excellent book): "The 'Ostwallturm' or 'Ostbefestigung', with a narrower mantlet, cupola replaced by a simple hatch with a single periscope, & roof armour beefed up from 16mm to 65mm".

    This one above has no cupola, but I'm not sure it fits the other features.
    To be honest though, I don't think I've ever looked through pictures for one of the special heavies, and it's a long while since I looked in the Short book.



    *very sensibly - why know that?
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    VP

    Main trouble with the panzersturm was that one couldn't see them when camouflaged - there weren't all that many as they were

    mainly unfinished with no crews - the 88mm that got us at San Martino was in a large dug out with no fuel so he would drag it out

    with a dozen Oxen - fire a few shots - on orders from San Martino - by this time the oxen were at the back pulling it into the dug

    out - making it tough to find…

    Cheers
     
    4jonboy and dbf like this.
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I've got a few accounts, Tom, and they do indeed sound like they were an absolute bugger. Another thing I do not envy anyone encountering.

    The Hitler Line Panther turrets were shipped to Italy by very late '43, with 11 deployed in the Liri valley as the 'points' in a zigzag with 62 towed & SP guns filling gaps between.
    Gothic Line installation in mid '44 does indeed appear to have been a tad more 'stressed', though it seems a fair few were set up eventually..

    Don't suppose you recall encountering any complete Panthers buried as bunkers? looks like several might have been got up and running in your area.
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    VP

    The 12RTR were hit by a dug in Panther at the south end of the Rimini Airfield - which caused us to break off our rest period to

    tackle San Martino once more but it has to be known that we were in full flight from Pieve on the 3rd Sep as there was no one holding
    the supposed Gothic Line at the River Foglia so we charged on thinking we could make Rimini by late on the afternoon of the 4th

    when my Tank was in the lead until just beyond Cattolica when we came to a screeching halt at the Coriano Ridge which held us for

    nearly three weeks until we crawled into Rimini on the 23rd……it was a fun time…

    Cheers

    PS - Gerry's Churchill was knocked out by a Panzersturm in the Hitler line but when he went back the next day he
    discovered that his knocked out Tank had fired a shot in the fire which in turn knocked out the same panzersturm -
    Ironic ...
     
    Capt.Sensible and Owen like this.
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Tom as you mention the 88 had no fuel was it a SP 88 like this Nashorn ?

    A knocked-out German 'Hornisse' (or 'Nashorn') 88mm self-propelled gun with the graves of its crew in the foreground, Gothic Line, September 1944.
    [​IMG]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. © IWM (NA 18351)IWM Non Commercial Licence
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen
    never did see it - just felt it and depend on survivors after discharge from Hospital to explain that it was a Panther…there was

    apparently three about the area…got a few of our Tanks as we lost 30 of them...

    Cheers
     
  8. ropey

    ropey Member

    Hi

    The German documents I've seen give 18 as the number on the Hitler Line, though they may not all have been in the Liri valley which may account for the difference in numbers.
     
  9. ropey

    ropey Member

    Also some did not have the steel base, but had concrete instead, while others (Eastern front only?] had wooden bases.

    There is a great thread on the Axis History Forum that has a range of photos and locations of Pantherturms.
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It would not surprise me at all. Must confess when posting I became a little confused by detail in the Short book & he does seem to be very much concentrating on Liri.
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    No point in arguing about numbers in the Liri valley or the Gothic as just one could stop a battalion of Tanks..which one did

    at the Southern end of the Rimini Airfield - with 12th RTR

    Cheers
     
  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I saw a picture once of a 75mm L/70 mounted an open poured concrete foundation somewhere in Germany in 1945. The was no steel or concrete shield of any kind, not even sandbags. That seems like an awful lot of work to put such a complicated weapon in place that could be destroyed by some hand grenades or 60 mm mortar.

    Does anyon had any more information on these installations? I can't find anything.
     
  13. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    I seem to remember seeing a dug in tank or turret a Arnhem some years ago (forty'ish)
    I walked all three routes into Arnhem and believe it was on the central or the lower route.
    On asking nobody seemed to know if it was there during Market Garden or installed after.
    Certainly have not seen any reports on one during OMG.
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Probably the postwar Sherman ones.
    I'll find a picture

    Edit:
    Post #78 for description of the postwar defences there.
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/6595-old-german-tanks-in-bulgaria-and-emplaced-tanksturrets-in-general/?p=149793
    Pics:
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sherman+turret+arnhem&biw=1680&bih=883&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=BAsXVKHKGePQ7AapxYGQCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg.
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    The Short book mentioned above is, in my opinion, the best coverage.

    Several different styles of turret mountings were envisioned, from buried whole tanks, complex concrete bunkers, steel frames, and even wooden ones.
    Along with those there were more extemporised Sockellafette mounts which appear to have been more a sympton of desperation than any sort of organised plan.

    Is this the one? Vogesenstellung emplacements 1944 from the US National Archives.
    [​IMG]


    Some of the more pre-planned emplacements do look quite flimsy, or were hurriedly put in without the right materials or digging in, but it's always worth remembering that they were intended to be part of a linked set of defences, so even ones that look exposed may well have been very nicely covered by other field pieces, MGs & troops.
     
  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Thats a good picture but the one I saw had the mantle but no other parts of the turret, So I guess the crew would have a small bit of protection from small arms fire. It was permanetly mounted on top of a huge block of concrete though.
     
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen
    More like the "panzerturm" we had to put up with - with a couple of bushes in front - you can't see them

    cheers
     

Share This Page