Operation Chastise anomoly

David and I have been chatting about one of the Lancasters that his father flew in - ED923 (97 Squadron).

Now the anomoly is that the said aircraft seems to have been in two places at once!

The 617 Squadron ORB claims that it was flown on the Dams Mission:



However, McCarthy and the rest of the crew (all seconded from 97 Squadron) were actually flying ED825 and ED923 was still with 97 Squadron and took part in an excercise on the same night (see David's father's attached logbook). Some sources say that McCarthy changed to ED825, which was the reserve aircraft.

17.5.43 High level bombing and Bullseye exercise carried out
97 Squadron Association - Flight Operations

So, what's going on? Anyone have any ideas as to why the 617 Squadron should have the wrong plane for McCarthy? And the ORB states that ED825 was flown by O'Shaughnessy!!

Help.

 

I should add that the conversation started with David mentioning that there was a mistake (ED923) in "Avro Lancaster: The Definitive Record", that we've both got. It claims that ED923 was lost whilst with 617 Squadron, when if fact it was lost whilst with 97 Squadron:

8/9 July 1943 Cologne

which is confirmed by Chorley.

 

It seems strange that ED 923 G (G a special aircraft converted during production at Avros for Operation Chastise and in a batch of 22 including 3 prototypes) should appear in a No 97 Squadron log book.

One important point was that no squadron operated these aircraft except No 617 Squadron until after the dams raid when the aircraft were returned to Avros and converted back to normal Lancaster Mark 111 aircraft.

The aircraft were then reissued as normal replacements to any squadron requiring replacements.

 

Harry, can you confirm that ED923 was definately converted to G? Because the aircraft appears in many of 97s missions both before and after the raid.

NO? I'm being thick but what's NO?

 

There were 22 aircraft converted to G status,that is "Guard" indicating a high security staus and which Avro works identified as "Type 464 Provisioning"

As I see it,on the night of the raid,McCarthy was allocated ED825/G which was one of the 3 prototypes and was delivered on the day of the raid to Scampton.It had been at.A.A.E.E. for testing at Boscombe Down and would be identified as AJ- Q.

 

That would imply that ED923 was then converted back and returned to 97 Squadron within 5 days because it took part in 23/24 May 1943 raid on Dortmund, and the 25/26 May 1943, Dusseldorf etc:

97 Squadron Association - Flight Operations

And this site states that there was no use of ED923

617 Squadron

It was then lost with 97 Squadron as mentioned above.

 

Looking at the confusion, The log book evidence does not balance with the Lancaster publication by Bruce Robertson.(Yet to check other sources)

There were 22 aircraft converted to G status,that is "Guard" indicating a high security staus and which Avro works identified as "Type 464 Provisioning".Work was initiated on 8 March 1943 and the conversion as a factory build took just over 2 months,the last aircraft being received on charge on the squadron by 14 May 1943.

As I see it,on the night of the raid,McCarthy was allocated ED825/G which was one of the 3 prototypes and was delivered on the day of the raid to Scampton.It had been at.A.A.E.E. for testing at Boscombe Down and would be identified as AJ- Q.

The spare aircraft was ED 923/G which was identified as AJ-T.When McCarthy tried to start AJ-Q he found that one engine was malfunctioning (Gibson records it was an hydraulic defect) However from being one of the first to be ready,McCarthy found himself looking for the spare which was ED 923/G.His problems were not over for the aircraft had no compass card and in his urgency,he "pulled" his parachute which required a replacement.Additionally the rear gunner was not happy with the state of his turret and found that the guns had not been loaded up.Consequently it is reported that McCarthy was 20 minutes late although Gibson records "He got off just on time"

As posted earlier.all surviving aircraft were taken back by Avros and factory converted back to Mark 111 aircraft.

ED 825/G (unused on the dams raid) was reissued to No 617 Squadron as a normal Mark111 aircraft but was lost over Northern France on 10-11 December 1943 when engaged on SOE duties as AJ-E

ED 923/G (McCarthy's aircraft according to Bruce Robertson) was reissued to No 97 Squadron as a normal Mark 111 aircraft but was lost over Cologne on 8/9 July 1943 as OF-V

The latter is shown in another Lancaster source as not a G Type but is shown as being with No 97 Squadron and it first operation being to Dortmund on the night of 23/24 May 1943.

Cooper in his "The Men who Breached the Dams" records that ED 923 "T" was lost on 8 September 1943 but this does not balance with Chorley.

One thing is certain,there cannot be two ED 923 serialed aircraft

 

Holmes' "The Definitive Record" lists ED923 as missing on 8/9 May 1943, whilst still with 617 Sq, again not corroborated by Chorley. Holmes also does not give it the 'G' suffixe (unlike the others).

 

On the No 617 Squadron web site,it indicates that ED 825/G was AJ "T" in the second wave which I can only think it indicates it was McCarthy's aircraft.Yet Bruce Robertson states this aircraft was never used and was the one which I think had problems on returning from A.A.E.E.and as AJ "Q", McCarthy rejected and had to take the spare aircraft.

ED 825 is shown by Bruce Robertson as only serving with No 617 after the dams raid and subsequently being lost in service.

Cooper does not mention ED 825 but as previously posted refers to ED 923 as does Bruce Robertson.

Needs a little more research

 

NO? I'm being thick but what's NO?

Kyt, in case you haven't realised and I'm correct in what you're asking, No = number i.e. No 617, Number 617 as opposed to just 617. I think that's it anyway. Harry?

 

Kyt, in case you haven't realised and I'm correct in what you're asking, No = number i.e. No 617, Number 617 as opposed to just 617. I think that's it anyway. Harry?

Apologies for failing to confirm what Andy states.

 

This thread has now got me nicely confused. Has the issue of serial numbers been resolved or not?

 

No!

 

thank you. If I can figure it out I shall check my books.

 

Just had a response over on rafcommands:

AllanGW
This one keeps rearing its ugly head!

ED923 was never modified for ‘Chastise’, never carried the /G for Guard suffix and never served with 617 Sqdn. Its Movement Card shows that it was issued to 97 Sqdn and remained with that unit until lost, and therefore is quite likely to appear in logbooks of 97 Sqdn aircrew.

ED915/G was Flt Lt McCarthy’s Queenie - ‘AJ-Q’, and was allotted to him for the operation. But it failed on start-up, forcing McCarthy and crew to make a rapid transfer to:

ED825/G which had been received from Boscombe Down earlier in the day, and was prepared as the spare aircraft. Squadron code AJ-T had been allocated to this aircraft but it is quite possible that there had not been time to apply the letters before the operation.

My theory is that the 617 Sqdn Operations Record Book pages for the Dams Raid were prepared using the Order of Battle. This document shows the allocation of aircraft and crews prior to the operation, and would therefore have shown ED915/G, AJ-Q for McCarthy. Subsequently, somebody has realised that this was not how it happened and introduced a ‘correction’ to the ORB, and this is evident on the original page of the ORB. Unfortunately, the serial number inserted wasn’t ED825/G, and has been misread as ED923.

Much reference is made in the thread on the other board to Bruce Robertson’s ‘Lancaster – The Story of a Famous Bomber’. In 1963 or thereabouts, when it was published, it was an excellent book, using all the information then available and setting the standard for those that followed. But it is now over forty years old and much has come to light in that time. So perhaps its accuracy can be questioned now and again.

Regarding reconversion of surviving ‘Chastise’ Lancasters, I have it on good authority from an Avro source that these aircraft were partially restored and used on conventional bombing operations – indeed ED825 was lost on one such operation – but it was not possible to refit the bomb bay doors.

Hope this helps.

Allan

(bold mine)

Thank you Allan for replying with information from the aircraft's movement card.
<CENTER><img src= "http://www.rafcommands.com/rafcommandsbanner.gif"><BR> - "Lancaster ED923"

 

that clears it up nicely.

 

Thanks for a good thread Kyt.

 

Very true. Now can you pay for all the Nurofen I had to take trying to figure it out?

 

Ha, you only had to read the thread. I had to check several different sources. It got to the point where I kept mixing all the serials up!.

 

*sniggers*