NW Europe 1944-45: British infantry battalion deployment

Discussion in 'General' started by BWilson, May 9, 2009.

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  1. BWilson

    BWilson Member

    One of the oddities of British organisation in 1944-45 in NW Europe was the presence of four (as opposed to three) rifle companies in infantry battalions assigned to infantry brigades.

    Anyone know how they were deployed, by this I mean were two up front and two in reserve, or 3 - 1 ?

    Thanks for any information.

    Cheers

    BW
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Why do you describe it as an oddity?
    As for deployment, it all depended on the tactical situation at the time.
     
  3. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Oddity? My Fathers battalion, 5th Camerons, only had 3 companies due to shortage of manpower, i.e casualties and lack of replacements. As Owen says, deployment depended on what was happening on the ground.
     
  4. BWilson

    BWilson Member

    Hi Owen,

    "Oddity" because most armies in NW Europe used a triangular structure of three rifle companies in a battalion.

    I'm not thinking so much of specific situations as what doctrine may have specified. As an example, U.S. doctrine was two up front and the third in reserve. I suppose I should have worded my question more precisely.

    Cheers

    BW

    Why do you describe it as an oddity?
    As for deployment, it all depended on the tactical situation at the time.
     
  5. BWilson

    BWilson Member

    51highland, thanks for that comment. It is the first time I have heard this for units in NW Europe; I have heard that battalions in Italy were so structured. Do you know if this held true for all battalions in the 51st Division ?

    Cheers

    BW

    Oddity? My Fathers battalion, 5th Camerons, only had 3 companies due to shortage of manpower, i.e casualties and lack of replacements. As Owen says, deployment depended on what was happening on the ground.
     
  6. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    As far as I am aware, it was common practice of having 4 rifle companies. Usually 'D' company would be disbanded and shared amongst other 3 companies after heavy casualties. There was of course also HQ company and at times, 'S' company. Certainly 1st Camerons (Burma) 2nd Camerons (Italy) & 5th Camerons (Africa, Sicily & NW Europe) had 4 rifle companies.
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    8th brigade had three 9th Brigade had three. 185 brigade had five,Third Div
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Remember too that there was, certainly in the case of many units that went to France in 1939, a peace time establishment and a war time establishment, which was around a third less. Many units were already in France by the time they received the extra men they should have to bring them upto a full War Establishment.

    It is still the same today. For example 7th Armoured Bde Sig Sqn only has two comms troops in peace time and their WE is a third troop for 'Rebro' while the two other troops are either 'Main' and 'Step up'. The same applies to all other regiments too as far as I'm aware that their peace time strength is different to fighting strength. When I did a stores course even equipment down to ancils in vehicles has two different amounts. One for peace and another for war.
     
  10. The four Rifle Coy organisation did mark British and Commonwealth Inf Bns out from the Allied and Axis contemporaries. Four Rifle Coys per Bn was perhaps a holdover from the Great War (which itself was a result of the previous eight Coys being paired into much larger subunits). During the inter-war period, most armies opted for three Rifle and one MG Coys, but the British remained on four Rifle. It's possible that the decision to field dedicated Machine Gun Bns may have had an early influence, Bns immediately before the war had their own Platoon of four Vickers in HQ Coy (which was decidedly cluttered already).

    In early 1943 there was a move to alter the Inf Bn to HQ Coy, Sp Coy and three Rifle Coys. Some home based units appear to have switched to it and a few years ago someone sent me the organization section of the WE. The loss of D Coy was partially offset by an increase in the strength of the Rifle Section from 10 to 12 men, and a 'spare' Bren team was added to Platoon HQ. The two extra men per Section appear to have been replacements.

    Overall strength fell by about 70 men I think, mostly riflemen. It appears to have caused quite a stir and by April 1943 a revised WE was issued, returning D Coy to the organisation. The Canadians followed suit and 1 Cdn Inf Div was reorganised on the April WE before heading off for Sicily.

    There were numerous instances where units deactivated one Rifle Coy due to losses. Ken Tout's 'Fine night for tanks' shows that all the Scottish Bns employed in Totalize were down to three Rifle Coys (each having deactivated C Coy). There are two mentions of Bns in 3rd (Br) Div choosing to turn one Coy into a training unit to absorb replacements (and one of a Bn forming a fifth Coy for the same purpose!). I've also seen mention several times of the 3 Irish Guards in 32 Bde operating three Rifle Coys from post Arnhem, until their relief by the 2 Scots Guards in Feb 1945.

    Generally Bns were expected to field four Rifle Coys, and the drop to three was due to circumstance and personnel issues. Italy was somewhat different and in Sep 1944 (memory time) all Inf Bns were directed to reduce to three Rifle Coys, and all Armd Sqns to four Troops. This was due to a combination of losses and lack of replacements, but was probably a recognition of the reality most such units by the time.

    Re deployment of Coys, as mentioned above it varied. The British tended to favour a Main Effort consisting of one or two Rifle Coys, which could be bolstered by elements of Sp Coy. There was potential for 'three up', but that would dilute the support available from within the Bn (3-inch mortars for example), and stretch communications. Two up, two back seems to have been quite popular, and in such a situation the resource for reinforcement or exploitation was quite nice to have. And, where C or D Coy were no longer on the books, units were no worse off than anyone using a three Coy set-up from the start.

    Gary
     
  11. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    My father's bn , 3IG in GAD, had 4 rifle coys, 2 up front, 2 in reserve for the main part, but used as required. HQ Coy as Owen mentioned had the support Pls - mortar, pioneer, carrier etc.

    They were still understrength by the time then went to Normandy and had to borrow X Coy from the Scots Guards, which went later to WG, despite 100+ casualties out of 2 coys in one day - 11/8/44. By end of August the regiment had raised a company from the disbanded 1st Bn back from Italy, and sent them over as reinforcements (No. 4 Coy). As Gary mentioned towards the end of the war the bn was back down to 3 coys, 1 Coy being suspended due to heavy casualty rate sustained again by two rifle coys, this time in a one day 'mopping up' operation in Feb 45.
     
  12. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    I wonder if this was a guards thing? No.2 Coldstream seemed to have 4 companies consistently throughout the war... even going so far as to getting a company loaned to them from the scots guards ('s' coy) to replace one of their own after the battle of Italy in '44.

    I've had a look at the way they were deployed, and in large conflicts they usually only had one in reserve.
     
  13. jainso31

    jainso31 jainso31

    I agree with Gary without equivocation.
    A,B and D were riflle Coys. C was the the Support Coy ie.m/c guns,mortars etc.
    I suppose this may have been varied, as he rightly says,dependant on the Battalion's circumstance at any given time.

    jainso31
     
  14. I wasn't referring to C Coy as being a support unit actually, A to D were the Rifle Coys. I just recalled from Ken Tout's book that the Scottish Bns for Totalize he covered had all temporarily deactivated their C Coys due to casualty/replacement issues.

    The Mortar, Carrier, Anti-tank and Pioneer Platoons were all concentrated in Support, or S, Coy, from the 1943 establishment, which remained in use with minor modifications until the post-war period. Prior to that the Mortar, Carrier, AA (LMG) and Pioneer Platoons were all lumped into HQ Coy along with Signals and Admin.

    Gary
     
  15. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

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