I continually read about the "British" forces retiring to night leaguers, surrendering the battlefield to the German engineers and tank recovery teams. How much did this really happen? Was it worse in 1941 than 1940 or 1942? Was it only R/T/R units that were involved, or did the Infantry R.A units join in too?
It was essentially an armoured thing to permit replenishment of fuel and ammunition, servicing and, if the crews were really lucky: eat and sleep. The prevailing wisdom was that tanks were no use at night so they would pull but the other arms would hold their positions. One of the key roles of the motor battalions was to provide protection for the leaguers.
Ok thanks. Did it prevail throughout 1940 - 1942? How about the A/C Regiments, what was their doctrine?
Off the top of my head - yes, it was a fairly standard tactic where the battlefield was open. 7 Armd Div even leaguered overnight in Normandy on their way down to Villers-Bocage as they were in front of the front line. Thinking aloud, there might be some other examples during the Great Swan, possibly even differences between the old desert and UK formations? Things were probably a lot more flexible with the A/C units as they would often operate as independent sub-units over a much wider area or attached to other units/formations. However, at some point they would have to fall back on their echelon to replenish. I will try to think if I've got anything on them...
Hi Can't remember where I got this, but it might be of some use to you. A ‘Laager’ is: ‘A defensive encampment encircled by armoured vehicles or wagons’. Each Armoured Regiment had 3 Armoured Squadrons which each had 16 tanks. These were equally divided between three troops, named A to C and Squadron HQ. Each Squadron would halt in a double line ahead, 150 yards apart with 10 yards between each tank. C Tp on the right flank, B Tp on the left flank, A Tp in the centre. HQ would be deployed in single line on left of A. A battery of Royal Artillery field guns would be positioned between A and C Tps with a Coy of Mechanised Infantry positioned between RHQ and B Coy. The Anti-Aircraft and Anti-Tank troops had a single column each on the left side of E Battery. There were ten yards between vehicles and 5 yards between lines. The group therefore formed a rectangle with all vehicles facing one way. The tanks on the flanks traversed their guns outwards with the tank on the end of each line turned its turret to the rear. The infantry Coy would mount a listening post to the front and Machine Guns were on fixed lines at each corner of the laager. Telephone lines were laid to squadron, battery and company HQs and to the listening post centred on the Commanding Officer’s tank. B Echelon would come up to hand out petrol, ammunition, food and water and retire to their own laager which was typically about 10 miles back in the desert. Gus
G Myles That is indeed the prescribed book to follow in the UK - Practice was a bit different as when the Sun finally went off west - we had to replenish petrol- ammo - food - mail etc - first job was to maintain the Tank ready for morning - then ammo - petrol - THEN food - by then it's way after 1.am. BUT first man does two hour guard duty after which he MIGHT get a few hours sleep as the Infantry forgot to show up and we often heard the enemy wind up their Nebelwerfers - not to fire them just to wind them up and keep you awake - then a Spandau would rip off a few rounds every 15 minutes - so by the time of first light - you are ready to kill anyone in your path.....but the book doesn't mention all that as meanwhile our own LAD fitters are out on the battlefield bringing back the day's casualties..and bumping into the enemy doing exactly the same - and causing more noise British Tanks had NO means of seeing in the dark.....th Germans did - google for "Smokey Smith" winning his VC when my squadron was bogged down on the Savio Cheers
Tom What apparatus did the German tanks have for seeing in the dark? I know they had some rudimentary infra red towards the end of the war, but not in the desert surely? Chris
Chris Didn't delve into the technicalities..but I know they had it late in '44 in Northern Italy as observed in "Smokey's" article - they mostly had wider tracks which allowed them free movement in the marshy stuff and the area at the Savio - near Cesena was prone to flooding after rain.......the Italians knew all about this flooding and had constructed barriers to contain the rapid flooding - so the German Engineers destroyed these barriers.....now the route we took in Italy had many rivers and starting away down at the Sangro - Monty fired his chief engineer as he was building the bridges too low and were being swept away - Monty then had a bridge built about 25ft high over the river - that worked....same problem at Cassino where they changed the barriers of the Rapido and all the rivers we crossed someone will be able to come up with the amount of Bailey Bridges we used as it was a case of cross the River - climb the mountain - down the mountain - cross another River- until we hit Venice - with NO roads .... Churchill Tanks didn't swim ... Cheers
David It was general practice during CRUSADER. It worked well generally, since the Germans had a habit of illuminating the desert with Verey lights throughout. So by keeping generally dark both sides could avoid each other. Night was for the infantry. There were a few instances however when it caused serious operational issues to the Allied troops. I don't think that in either 41/42 the Germans had any means of night vision. But then again, I don't think the desert would be completely blacked out on a night with some moon. Also, a leaguer would not necessarily be a completely dark place. Someone is bound to have a fag, or whatever. All the best Andreas
Didn't laagers act as magnets for special forces raids? I mean, a static enemy on open ground is a dream come true for an SF operator, and with Brandenburgers around, the tactic of disabling enemy armour two tanks a night would not sound that unreasonable.
Warlord Trouble was the Germans didn't have the outfits such as Popski's - LRDG - SAS - etc plus the fact that they were as weary as we were after fighting every day Cheers
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-infrared-night-vision-devices-infrarot-scheinwerfer.htm Infrared 1939. http://www.weaponsofwwii.com/german-infrared-equipment-assesment Other arms (Luftwaffe): http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/bordgerate/optisch.htm
No mention of the infra red vision in Italy..but I can assure you that they did have it as we were up against 26th Pz Div which had a high concentration of Panther PzMkv which we had first met at around Frosinone in the Liri Valley - during the fracas with Smokey Smith V.C. - the Panther he caused to reverse into the ditch was recuperated and handed to "A" Squadron 145th RAC and my good friend Walter acted as gunner until he stepped on a Schu mine while refuelling on 11th November '44 - he is buried at Cesena - Smokey died here in Vancouver in 2005 aged 91......when Walter died Brigade came along and took the Panther away stating that we were contravening the Geneva Convention......! Cheers
As a prototype. I'd be happy to see any evidence that they fielded this kit in 1941. All the best Andreas
Not really, I think both sides were pretty happy to leave each other in piece during the night. Exceptions I have come across such as the overrunning of 8 Hussars leaguer seem to have been accidental. The Allieds kept their leaguers blacked-out, the Germans illuminated them profusely by constantly firing Very lights. It helped to avoid each other. All the best Andreas
Similarly 4th AB HQ was overrun at night and many staff and code books went into the bag but the Brigadier was away that night ... Cheers
Andreas, If I gave the impression that by posting the link I was indicating specific dates - then the fault is mine. However, I will have a look around. starting points: Physikalische Blätter (scientific) or archiv infrarot 1941 (or earlier) waffen.
Hi Wills I understood you correctly (i.e. you didn't want to suggest that they fielded these instruments in 1941), and I just wanted to clear things up for those who may not look at the link. All the best Andreas
