King or Parliament?

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by von Poop, Jul 16, 2009.


English Civil Wars - King or Parliament?

  1. Royalist

    0 vote(s)
  2. Roundhead

    33 vote(s)
  3. Both

    34 vote(s)
  4. Neither

    6 vote(s)
  1. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    I think you are selling the mechanics of pike and shot a bit short especial if you take in to account the evolution of it. I think It is like say street fighting in ww2 seems strait forward but when you read mid war instruction book about and modem tactics books it is quite complex.

    I think I don't like the term (The English Civil) because I don't think we chop up history enough it is like when people think that WW1 drill and organisation in the same as Victorian maybe you have to be nerdy about such things:unsure: but I guess the trick is still to be objectionable.

    It is funny though how spin is put on our own countries history and how we refer to it to fit in with the politics of the time. Very much at school left wing teachers would spin the ECW as a revolution of the people.

    I did read once that Churchill in ww1 wanted to called a dreadnought Cromwell but was vetoed by the king.
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    To be honest I couldn't really be arsed to get into Pike & shot mechanics ;). I'm not entirely sure much that's particularly meaningful usually comes out of such discussion.
    I've got the old softcover facsimiles of assorted Drill manuals of the period (even used to know some of the primary transcribers thereof), used to read Gustavus and the like too, but it's a pretty tedious business, beloved of wargamers & reenactors. It's devolved into a weird circular argument and I'd usually tend to lay off in any depth because of that. Half the people I know with an interest can get curiously shouty about it, without considering the potential realities on the battlefield (not unlike many stats-based reviews of modern field warfare I suppose.)
    I can follow spears used en masse and their evolution fairly well (though I'm more interested in swords, and there was hardly a direct evolution of the long spear), but the beginning of the establishment of handgun primacy is the real story in the C.17th., to my eye anyway.
    The 17th century Pike is mostly interesting as the last gasp of such spear-handling. in the face of the next big thing, and perhaps in it's new role in protecting & working in combination with, those newer weapons.
    Whatever, I still love that Holbein woodcut of Landsknecht pikes gone awry.


    Though there are still many difficulties in translating that directly to ECW situations.
    I'd still vote for 'all potential outcomes are possible', as long as you start with a mass of several hundred men, some guns, & some 16 foot long spears.
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I say, isn't that a forum members group photo from some Seelöwe thread? :D
  4. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    I have always been interested about ECW and renaissance tactics but the best thing I ever learnt about the period was this. It is the best work of art ever IMHP. Really I never thought about art till saw this painting.
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Went to Burford today & had a look around the church .
    On the wall is a plaque to 3 men executed for their part in the 'Leveller Mutinies' in 1649.
    Leveller Mutinies

    When news of the mutinies reached London, security was increased at the Tower, where the Leveller leaders were imprisoned. Fairfax and Cromwell reviewed their loyal cavalry regiments at Hyde Park and marched to confront the mutineers. Manoeuvring swiftly to keep units of mutinous troops isolated from one another, Fairfax succeeded in surrounding the main body at Burford in Oxfordshire. He ordered a surprise night attack which was led by Cromwell. After a few shots were exchanged, most of the mutineers surrendered. Several hundred were kept locked in Burford Church for several days, after which three of the ringleaders were executed by firing squad in the churchyard. The rest were pardoned by Fairfax.

    Cornet Thompson
    Corporal Perkins
    Private Church

    Inside on the font , another man scratched this into the lead .

    Attached Files:

  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Went to Basing House today & watched The Sealed Knot at it.
    History and Archaeology of Basing House

    Looks like they were having fun.
    They're not 100% accurate at portraying the period to be honest.
    Did they do face piercing in 1645 ?
    I've seen reenactments by both Sealed Knot & ECWS , the latter go for a more authentic look.
    Twasn rather wet & cold, a low crowd turn out.

    Attached Files:

  7. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Looks like a lot of birds and old men lol.

    And how hard is it to get black power solvent=very.

    I hope they did what they said they were going to and ban buff coats and brown besses. 20 tears ago and in a different life:)
  8. Mark Hone

    Mark Hone Senior Member

    The idea that the Parliamentarians were advocating a form of Liberal Democracy is completely ahistorical. They were mainly rich fundamentalists who ended up running a military dictatorship. When signs of a genuine popular movement did emerge (The Levellers, as mentioned above) they had the ringleaders shot. I think that I'll stick with His Majesty.
    von Poop likes this.
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Mark, on this I could not agree more.
    The Christopher Hill version of events as a 'revolution' in the modern interpretation of that word leaves me completely cold - if we must step into 60s/70s Marxist terminology this was the Bourgeoisie agitating for the Bourgeoisie - a 'Rebellion', yes - but a 'Revolution'?.. no, not really.

    Freeborn John & his ilk were hardly the standard issue 'Parliamentarian'.
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    On at 22.20 BBC4.
    BBC Four - Roundhead or Cavalier: Which One Are You?

    In the middle of the 17th century, Britain was devastated by a civil war that divided the nation into two tribes - the Roundheads and the Cavaliers. In this programme, celebrities and historians reveal that modern Britain is still defined by the battle between the two tribes. The Cavaliers represent a Britain of panache, pleasure and individuality. They are confronted by the Roundheads, who stand for modesty, discipline, equality and state intervention.The ideas which emerged 350 years ago shaped our democracy, civil liberties and constitution. They also create a cultural divide that influences how we live, what we wear and even what we eat and drink. Individuals usually identify with one tribe or the other, but sometimes they need some elements of the enemy's identity - David Cameron seeks a dash of the down-to-earth Roundhead, while Ed Miliband looks for some Cavalier charisma.
    Featuring contributions from Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen, AS Byatt, Julian Fellowes, Philippa Gregory, Anne Widdecombe and Clarissa Dickson Wright.
    Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier?

    edit: dont bother watching it's crap.
    I gave up after 10 minutes.
  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    von Poop likes this.
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Pleased to stumble a couple of weeks ago onto the Sir Edmund Verney Memorial at Claydon House's Church:



    Oft said that his body was never found, excepting his hand still clutching the royal standard (a section of the staff of which is on display in the house).

    Seem to recall there may be truth to this, as the hand was clipped to the Standard in a kind of locking gauntlet (not mentioned in the usual legend... as it spoils the fun). This may be purely a figment of my ratty memory though.
    Owen likes this.
  14. londoner

    londoner Member

    I went to school in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire and at school I was in Hampden House, I lived in Stoke Mandeville.
    A major catalyst of the English Civil war was the refusal of John Hampden to pay ship tax on land he owned in Stoke Mandeville.
    So I guess I was destined to be a Roundhead.
    Statues of John Hampden stand in St Stephens Hall in the Houses of Parliament and in the Aylesbury market square. The Aylesbury statue has him pointing towards his home in Great Hampden. Although unbuilt in his time he is also pointing towards Chequers and I have always taken this as a modern warning to the Prime Minister of the day not to upset the people too much, they should take it that way also.David

    Attached Files:

  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Oliver Cromwell died today, 1648.

    How did they manage to establish the time of death so accurately in 1658? :unsure:

  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Beats Justin Bieber any day!
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Just watching this on BBC3.

    What absolute bollocks. Crap indeed.
    Not really a history programme at all. You could spend hours unpicking many of the statements of experts they've hired in, and the rest is just talking-head arse.
    A shame...

    Back on Iplayer again, but like the man says; don't bother.
  20. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    1642 and all that: 1642

    1642 The formation of what is now Scots Guards, sent to Ireland to 'quell the rebels' named the 'Irish Companies' and then the Lyffe Guards. Painted on the walls of Londonderry 1970s '1642/1976 the b'stds are still here!'

    Oliver Cromwell: Cromwell

    Charles 1st: Charles 1

    'Tumbledown Dick' :

    Army lists 1642 Roundheads and Cavaliers the Navie Royall and Merchant Ships: and cavaliers

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