Japanese bloody killed abuse European POWS during the world war 2.

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by tivew, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    Japanese bloody killed abuse European POWS during the world war 2.
    According to the British "Daily Mail" reported on 6th, the Far East fighting were more brutal than people think in world war 2, the British historian Max Hastings's book, "Revenge: Fight to Japan (1944-1945) ", disclosed the Western Allies what a shock after discovered the Japanese abuse European POWS.

    That was January 1945, the British Army 14th Division across the border to Mandalay, Myanmar, In a victory, they found a lot of evidence that the Japanese abuse of prisoners. some British soldiers had been stripped of boots, with wire wrapped around a tree upside down, cool beaten to death. This is further stimulated the British hatred of the Japanese soldiers. In the UK, the Japanese proved to abuse POWS far beyond the battlefield. Those lucky to escape pows , tell about more extreme brutal Japanese abuse European POWS stories, and British politicians and officials fear the Japanese will be intensified retaliatory torture those European POWS who are still in their hands. Don't let these scandals completely exposed.
    In 1942, the famous "Bataan Death March", many of U.S. POWS were killed, European pilots were brutally beheaded, the U.S. government hide for several months before the witness's testimony was public . Allied officials reluctant to admit situation so bad, until January 1945, a so-called Foreign Affairs Committee concluded only in some remote areas have the phenomenon of abuse POWS.

    Just a few weeks later, a large number UK and Australia POWS release from Myanmar and Philippinesthe , counter with their own
    experience, At that time the officials involved in release of all POWS were shocked to their environment: where hunger prevails, disease prevalence, tens of thousands of prisoners died due to overwork, or because of minor breaches add to torture or beheading death. a quarter of POWS was be killed in Japanese prison camps. Japanese do exactly the same like Nazis do with Jews and Russian, but the United States, Britain and Australia publics are still very shocked, even in the situation at that time, can't understand Japanese flagrant violation of European human rights.

    The begin of Pacific War, the Philippines, the Netherlands East Indies, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Myanmar and other places have been occupied by Japan army.Many Allied soldiers became Japanese prisoners . When the surrender prisoners were being detained in Manila, Singapore, Hong Kong or Rangoon waiting ruling, they absolutely didn't expect to the hell waiting for
    them.A Japanese war correspondent who described the U.S. POWS he saw - "a group from the arrogant nation, they had to accept the Imperial Japanese military contempt. "When I see them, feel they are just a group of mixed hybrid offspring, had no dignity, and Japanese soldiers look handsome, I'm proud of myself as Japanese."

    "Those who didn't eat were first batch of the dead," Paul Luolutesi corporal said, "I bury a lot of people look stronger than
    I am, because I never refuse eat any thing. One time, Australian Peter Snow found an inch long maggot in foods.he just simply said:" a little beauty, go away. "" We have to imagine them as Christmas pudding, raisins, or What other good things.
    A shipyard in Osaka, two hungry British POWS eat a big tub of lard, which is used to lubricate sewer, so prior to adding arsenic, two POWS so lost their lives.
    Thomson in his private diary reads: "Every day we are a walking day by day. Drived to do this and that, I learned to had no any hope of life, no longer have any feelings."
    Yangon Stephen Peter from Philip camp wrote: "We have become heartless, ruthless, people who often bet on who will next to die. Of course, must try to save the sick, but when the inevitable doom , only sadness no useful "
    Who would not care about self-esteem. Prisoners will face own incompetence everyday. Rosen had seen Japan soldiers kicked USA POW into a toilet pit: "When you have to accept these things, you truly feel the taste of defeat."

    Almost every European POWS in later years, watching their comrades had been beaten by Japanese soldiers. even been killed.
    They feel ashamed about indifferent, They hate bowed to each Japanese soldier everday, no matter how low rank he is, slightly irreverent will provoke fatal disaster.
    Japanese seem special hate for tall, Tall often must knee down to accept cane beaten and other penalties. One day, the pilot Fred Jackson worked on the coral island airport in Emu Bang Province.He saw the six UK officers were lined up , a Japanese officer, regardless any reason.Beat them down to the ground one by one.

    Phenomenon of the Japanese abuse POWS can be seen everywhere, In addition, there are so many beheadings and stabbed to death phenomenon.Japanese so cruel treated Allied POWS. Japanese abused Allied prisoners of war are well known. Allied prisoners in war camp in Japan's dead rate was 30%, German and Italian prisoners in camp less than 5% dead rate.For most appear weakness in the battle of the Westerners, Japanese also more contempt for them and brutal torture European POWS.
     
  2. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    I am a Chinese.May I ask a question?
    How the European view the When Japanese soldiers kill them,abuse them? Are they very fear Japanese ? or very hate them?
    I don't encourage hate crime, but I am very strange, These Japanese abuse European so cruel.
    But USA take Japan as so-call ally after world war 2. Are USA want use of Japan or other intention?
    It's unimaginable for a Asia people!
     
  3. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    U.S. war with Japan, 100 008 soldiers dead in battle. plus non-combat dead, U.S. soldiers 130,008 dead in pacific war. Australian troops 17,000 die in battle. British troops 36,000 die in fighting, and other Western countries, more than 10,000 killed in battle.
    Not include 50,000 India soldiers dead in battle, not including tens of thousands of Filipino soldiers and Malaysia soldiers,not include China expedition were killed in Myanmar. Japan killed western countries soldiers over more than 200,000 in pacific war.

    Japanese land force 350,000 were killed in battle, Navy, 158000 were killed in battle.plus non-battle dead(strave,suicide,disease,wounded)Japan soldiers dead in pacific war about one million.
     
  4. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    Bataan Death March

    In the course of the death march, the Japanese humiliated European POWS as human can, they weren't considers POWS as human beings, In their view, these U.S. soldiers should battle to dead or suicide. then can get Japanese respect. Become POWS were greatest shame for soldiers.
    Because suffering torture, even prisoners arrived at destination, large number USA POWS death or disability. The following story based on survivors, U.S. soldiers Allen tell us, he speak about death march with comrades experience.
    Violence Objective: collect money and revenge
    The Japanese soldiers escorting prisoners in march, looking for "souvenirs", not just U.S. soldiers' objects, if you see any American POWS who have something, especially money, they robbed. In the bloody battle of Bataan, U.S. soldiers will find Japanese items or coins as a souvenir from dead body. So when the Japanese soldiers found Japanese item from United States POWS, they will pull American POWS out, then never see them - Japanese think these American POWS killed their comrades.

    Allen tough walk, even though his body strong, he could not withstand torment. The course of the march, there were wounded U.S. soldiers and Filipino civilians Feishi join the march. They all do their best to adhere, but only few people can keep up with team.Perhaps the sun very hot, Japanese are anxiety. They become more and more fierce, more and more terrible. If people who goes slowly, Japanese think just poke a bayonet assault,the pain was not enough. Now soldiers have a poke to kill POWS. About walk one kilometer again, Allen saw a Filipino soldier twist in the dust, his stomach has been hurted by the Japanese soldiers, like a bloody gourd. Allen vomit out. Slowly, he saw the bodies of POWS everywhere, they bloody, curled up, some open eyes, as if blessing his comrades "Good Luck." Allen getting used to misery. (continue.....)
     
  5. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    "Clean Team" executed laggards
    The prisoners were brought into a yard when sunset. Japanese say they will have something to eat, eat and sleep here. Alan sigh , his comrades Cote said: "Maybe we will feel better from now on." Ivory smile helplessly : "I hope so, at least we should eat some things. "Smoe people cooking rice, soy sauce and sausage, the smell towards me, POWS stomach began sounds. Alan excited be crazy. He imagined the smell of sausage slipped mouth. Suddenly, after a whistle, prisoners were ordered to line up. Japanese soldiers laugh and pick up sausage and rice filled with a large spoon ,show the POWS.
    A Japanese Officers went in front of European POWS cursed: "We said something to eat, allow you sleep when you came here. Now the situation is different. We found pistols from three American officers. I punish you, not allowed to eat, must move on. "Allen's fantasy fallen, Japanese add some unproven crime to POWS. "In the initial search, even a toothbrush, shaving cream are let off, let alone a pistol. Even people who really hide the gun, according to Japanese habits,He should been pulled out to shot, killed or beheaded, in order to warning. "Allen thought.
    Bataan Death March (part 3)
    European POWS dragged his exhausted legs, with disappointment, pain and curse difficulty moving. Fortunately Japanese did not forbid them speak. They more or less encouraged each other. C?te apparently was extremely tired. Alan joked: "Hey, man, in a walk?" Cote said feebly: "I can't walk a kilometer oncemore.Allen said: "hey, I'm like you. But perhaps had something to eat. "They encouraged each other with difficult smile. And walked two or three kilometers, C?te goes slowly. Allen will slow down push him with a shoulder. Some people continue fall. Japanese "clean team" took them to solve.
    At 9 o'clock, the Japanese drived prisoners to a courtyard for rest, full of courtyard, Allies POWS could not lie down. POWS have to stand.Ye Taihei, POWS didnt know where it is . Allen found a small bamboo platform, climb up sit down. From here he clearly saw outside Japanese soldiers, took a few large pot with the rice. He could see the fire and Japanese soldiers. He can smell cooking food. "Oh, great! Japanese to give us food." Allen naive think. He watched steam rising from the pot, waiting, the feeling of hunger very strong. But no one gave them meal. Allen sat on the bamboo platform slept.
    The next morning, the long march went on. After walk a morning, the sun rise. Japanese command ALLIES POWS to rest. No shelter and no breeze, It was not rest, is a Japanese cruel penalty imposed on them - "exposure to sunburnt." Two hours of "exposure" of POWS, it'S the most brutal mental and physical torture. POWS wounds began worse, suppuration, face and body skin begins burn, people anxious. POWS become more and more insane. Some of them screaming madly, crawled on the ground with chaos, Some people in a coma for a while and die.
    Witnessed his comrades were buried when alive
    Hot sun, tried and hungry make Allen got splitting headache, dazzled. At this time, several Japanese soldiers came and ordered several USA dragged out bodies buried, some insane people been put into the huts. They began digging. When the shallow hole dug,POWS bury the body. Just then, an American soldier and two Filipinos were carried to leave, they has been unconscious but still alive. A Japanese stopped POWS and ordered them to put the three people into hole, and command POWS started working. A spade after a spade dusts drop on the three POWs. At this time, the American soldiers suddenly woke up, he open blue eyes, hard to climb out the hope. There is any hope he alive. Two Japanese soldiers use knife point to Filipino throat, he hesitated a moment, a Japanese soldier put knife on his neck tighter. Filipino prisoners scared more, eyes closed, use a spade beat the American down.The American fell back, the person responsible for the burial fill the hole ... ... (Continue)
     
  6. tivew

    tivew Discharged

    Bataan Death March (part 4)

    The fourth day, prisoners had a spoon of rice, this is their only foods in these days.Because little food, Allen still very hungry,but he felt satisfied. Some people have already died. Midnight it began to rain, and Alan lying on ground,feel cold.

    Hunger, thirst, exposure, heavy rain, miserable make USA POWS silk. In course of the march, the USA POWS urine in their pants. If behind, will be the killed by Janpanese. POWS are suffering from various malaria, dysentery and diarrhea and other diseases, some lost their lives. When USA POWS pass a residential area, some Filipinos sympathetic them,thrown some bread or biscuits to POWS. But the Japanese soldiers angry these people, and anger to USA POWS, kicked them.

    Fifth day afternoon, USA POWS arrived Shengfuernan. They don't need march finally . They are drive into trucks, 80 to 100 people in each car. Because crowded, many people can not breathe. Prisoners jammed together, people can't had a little fresh air. Allen sat on car door lucky, enjoying the fresh air. The sun more hot, like an oven in truck. Most prisoners infected dysentery. Some people fainted, some people fell down, they lie at the foot of other USA POWS, face in the filth on ground. Suffering in the trucks for 5 hours, finally reached the Karpas. Door is opened, POWS walked with tremble. Japanese soldiers order USA POWS stand on a space. POWS stand in the hot sun for two hours, they began to march in evening ,they arrived at the destination.- Odd Neil war camp.

    In war camp, the Japanese more abuse of POWS, USA POWS forced heavy labor, also withstand Japanese tortured. Japanese also let prisoners hungry sometimes. After Allied POWS experienced a brutal "Bataan death march" and Odd Nell camps,tens of thousands people died. (end)
     
  7. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Hello

    I am an American who was born in 1955. All of the men in my family and neighborhood (in the affected age group) were combat veterans of WWII or Korea or both. The ones that had served in the Pacific all hated the Japanese for the rest of their lives. They didn't seem to have those feelings for Germans. The Italians were considered a joke. Many of the families in the New York area contained some cousins who had served in the Italian Army and some others who were in the American Army and I really do remember people laughing about it.

    Dave
     
  8. Assam

    Assam Senior Member

    Tivew,

    A couple of ponits on your posts:

    1. As japan was NOT a signatory to the League of Nations convention on Prisoners of War (Geneva Convention), they did not believe that they should comply with the articles in that document.

    This was reinforced by the cultural aspects of the IJA by which they felt that the greatest shame was to be captured & that anyone of "Honour" would take their own life. As such, the viciousness displayed was an outward display of contempt for their captives.

    The rank & file of the Japanese army were 1 step away from foreigners no matter what race in the eyes of the Japanese Officer class & as such, the vicious behavior distributed, was distributed because they themselves were the recipients of abuse & humiliation by the officer class & senior NCO's. the fact that they now had someone (POW's) at which to vent their anger was a welcome release for them.

    2ndly, remember that not all Camp guards were Japanese, a large number of the Prisoner Camp corps were conscripts from Korea. These Korean camp guards were, in the eyes of the japanese, only 1 rung up the ladder from the people they were guarding. the viciousness that the Koreans displayed cannot be understated & as such, in order to ensure that the Japanese paid attention to them, they became very brutal indeed in the hope that there actions & deportment towards the POW's they would elevate their reputation & status in the eyes of the Japanese masters.

    3 of the worst, were "Monkey Face", "Doctor Death" & "The Undertaker". These 3, I am led to understand were camp guards on the Burma Siam Railway.

    ATB

    Simon
     
  9. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
    Japan did sign this treaty on 27/07/1929 but never ratified it.

    Japan was a signatory on this though and did ratify it.

    Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armies in the Field. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
    Japan Signed 27.07.1929, Ratified 18.12.1934

    CHAPTER I

    WOUNDED AND SICK

    Article 1. Officers and soldiers and other persons officially attached to the armed forces who are wounded or sick shall be respected and protected in all circumstances; they shall be treated with humanity and cared for medically, without distinction of nationality, by the belligerent in whose power they may be.
    Nevertheless, the belligerent who is compelled to abandon wounded or sick to the enemy, shall, as far as military exigencies permit, leave with them a portion of his medical personnel and material to help with their treatment.


    Art. 2. Except as regards the treatment to be provided for them in virtue of the preceding Article, the wounded and sick of an army who fall into the hands of the enemy shall be prisoners of war, and the general provisions of international law concerning prisoners of war shall be applicable to them.
    Belligerents shall, however, be free to prescribe, for the benefit of wounded or sick prisoners such arrangements as they may think fit beyond the limits of the existing obligations.

    As a little note
    Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
    Was never signed nor ratified by the Soviet Union

    Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armies in the Field. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
    Russian Federation Ratified 26.09.1931 with reservation 26.09.1931

    Reservation made on accession :
    The act of accession was accompanied by the following declaration by which Article 9 of the Convention is understood by the Government of the Union in the sense that all military personnel on active service but affected to medical formations and establishments will be subject to the treatment provided for in the above-mentioned Article.

    It does poke a few holes in the claims Japan and the Soviets were not signatories so were not bound by the rules.


    Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
    Provisions concerning the treatment of prisoners of war are contained in the Hague Regulations of 1899 and 1907. In the course of World War I they revealed several deficiencies as well as a lack of precision. Such defects were partly overcome by special agreements made between belligerents in Berne in 1917 and 1918. In 1921, the International Red Cross Conference held at Geneva expressed the wish that a special convention on the treatment of prisoners of war be adopted. The International Committee of the Red Cross drew up a draft convention which was submitted to the Diplomatic Conference convened at Geneva in 1929. The Convention does not replace but only completes the provisions of the Hague regulations. The most important innovations consisted in the prohibition of reprisals and collective penalties, the organization of prisoners'work, the designation, by the prisoners, of representatives and the control exercised by protecting Powers.

    These would also seem to apply to Japan

    Convention (II) with Respect to the Laws and Customs of War on Land and its annex: Regulations concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land. The Hague, 29 July 1899.
    Convention (IV) respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land and its annex: Regulations concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.

    They did sign and ratify the 1899 and 1907 regulations and I have not found anywhere that says they ever rescinded them.
     
  10. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    You can argue either way about the Japanese and Russians and what they should / should not have done.


    After the war, the US wanted friends in Europe to help counter the threat of the USSR.
    So West Germany was turned to a democracy, and West Europe used Marshall Plan money to rebuild.

    After 1949, the US wanted friends in the Far East to help counter the threat of Communist China. And yes, i know the OP is Chinese.

    So, Japan was turned into a democracy.
    War crimes trials were held in the Far East, but many of the accused were already dead, either from the war, or suicide.

    People were very tired from 6 years of war, and wanted to hear about different things.
     
  11. Peccavi

    Peccavi Senior Member

    I think there was similar thread to this one a short while ago. So I looked into Japanese barbarism which I, and I guess 99% of Whites, in our overbearing way, would assume is the normal Asiatic way of fighting Wars.

    In fact the descent into barbarism was far different than that imagined.
    With Meiji restoration, Japan adopted, superficially at least, Western ways which quickly enabled her to establish a commanding lead over all other Asiatic countries. In some ways, she was more Western than the Westerners and this extended to treatment of Prisoners of War. In the Russo-Japanese conflict, Japan was praised for her humane treatment of prisoners and fully complied with all Western practices.

    She made gains in the First World War from German possessions and earlier Russian possessions in China, as well extracting concessions from a disintegrating China in Manchuria and Mongolia.

    Even during the 1920s, having signed the Washington Accords, she behaved moderately.

    Emperor Yoshihito was frail, ill and feeble and the accession of his son, Hirohito, in 1926 had the effect of increasing the nationalism of the middle ranking Officers, especially of the Kwantung Army. They came to see the older generation of "weak" Westerners as a drag on the fulfilment of Japan's destiny to dominate East Asia, Kodo, the Imperial way and a return to "mythical" older values pre-dating the Meiji restoration.

    Chiang Kai-Shek's success in partially uniting China in 1928/29, the boycott of Japanese goods, the Depression, the general feeling that the West, and the USA in particular, had denied Japan it rightful inheritance all combined to increase the power of the younger military. The subsequent gradual take-over of Japan by these trends led to the full militarisation and barbarism that followed.

    As with Germany, the barbarism was not pre-ordained and was comparatively recent when Japan opened up her attacks (and massacres) on China in the 1930s.
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Yes, there is quite a large thread at the Did the Japanese Deserve the Bomb (linkie) and in order to avoid repetition perhaps it would be best to read it through a bit :)
     
  13. Earthican

    Earthican Senior Member

    Please excuse my awkward sentences and confused points. It is a bigger topic than can be handled in many posts, let alone one.

    You may have hit upon a key difference between the current western attitude towards Japanese war crimes and the Chinese. Given that the western victims were mostly military that might engender one lesser degree or depth of outrage. The crimes the Japanese soldiers committed against Chinese civilians on Chinese soil must raise the stakes considerably. American-Chinese writer Iris Chang wrote of these crimes and I sense developed an absolute hatred that could not be immediately grasped by the American public.

    Also there is the ongoing geographical and cultural proximity. We don't often hear of the Japanese failure to acknowledge and educate its people about the behavior of its soldiers during the war. When we do hear that Japanese school books gloss-over or avoid their war crimes, this troubles us. And then there is the strong element in US society that would minimize Wounded Knee and My Lai so who are we to criticize.

    Given the strategic position of Japan with regards to the USSR and Maoist China one can understand the embrace our political leaders gave Japan following the war. Now one worries that the time to correct Japan's view of itself has passed and how true any alliance with Japan can be. It is hoped there is a strong element in Japanese society committed to democracy and human rights, but from this distance one cannot be sure.

    One good point about western leadership that did not seek to inflame the public outrage over Japanese war crimes and took a high moral ground with it's treatment of captured Japanese soldiers and the defeated people. While we may have hanged more Japanese generals than we had proof of crimes, a cycle of violence and hatred was reduced.

    Welcome to the forum...
     
  14. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    And then there is the strong element in US society that would minimize ......


    Sorry, just wanted to throw in the leadership/interference of Douglas MacArthur,
    who gave a free pass to many criminals, including the Imperial Family.
     
  15. sparky34

    sparky34 Senior Member

    lets not forget that british troops , indian troops and gurkha's , plus a few french , fought alongside japanese troops in '' INDO-CHINA ' for nearly 6 months 45/46 to stop the vietmien declaring independence and taking over the country .

    what did '' MaCARTHUR '' say of this ..'' if theres anything that makes my blood boil .
    it is to see our allies in indo-china ..deploying japanese troops to reconquer the little
    people we promised to liberate ....it is the most ignoble of betrayal ..
    and the really sad part is it cost a lot of our lads lives ..plus eventually the defeat of the french at '' DIEN BIEN PHU '' and later 60.000 american lives in the vietnam war ..because they stopped independence in 1945 ..
     
  16. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    sparky34

    Not the only ones who armed Japanese Troops after Aug 1945

    Beginning in late September 1945, 50,000 United States Marines, mainly of the 1st and 6th Marine Divisions, were deployed to North China to assist Chiang Kai-shek’s forces in disarming and repatriating the Japanese in China and in controlling ports, railroads, and airfields.[4] This was in addition to approximately 60,000 U.S. soldiers remaining in China at the end of the war. On 15 October 1945, the United States Marine Corps accepted the surrender of more than 500,000 Japanese troops in Tientsin. Over the next few months the Marines continued to accept the surrender of and repatriate Japanese forces. The Marines occasionally rearmed the Japanese to protect them from vengeful Chinese. In one instance, Marines transporting a large number of Japanese troops were surrounded by a much larger contingent of Chinese communists. The Marine officer in charge rearmed several hundred troops under their Japanese major. After the Chinese Communists retreated, the Japanese major disarmed his men and the repatriation resumed. The United States Marines remained in China for four years, guarding American property and civilian personnel, but gradually withdrawing southward in the face of the communist advance. During this period, more than 70,000 Marines served in China. The Marines finally departed in June 1949.[5]

    I would assume you were talking about General Gracey who rearmed Japanese Troops for around 2 weeks in an attempt to restore order in Indochina

    Indochina had been a French colony since 1893 and now that the war was over, France was in a hurry to reclaim her former colony. Because no large numbers of French troops were available in the Far East, it had been decided at the July Potsdam conference to reoccupy Indochina China with Nationalist Chinese in the North and British troops South of the 16th parallel. Nationalist Chinese soldiers soon marched in Hanoi, but seemed in no hurry to break up Ho Chi Minh's new government. This led most Vietnamese to presume the French would not be returning.

    The first British troops landed by air in Saigon on the 8th of September 1945. These troops were the spearhead of Major General DD Gracey's 20th Indian Division. By October all three brigades of the Division had arrived in South Vietnam. The Divisions main job was to disarm the 70,000 Japanese troops in Indochina and maintain law and order until the French arrived in large numbers. Gracey's troops faced a very tense situation as the Vietnamese made it very clear that they had no wish to return to colonial rule. In many areas South of the 16th parallel attacks took place on individuals, troop convoys and military installations. General Gracey quickly realized that he could not control all of South Vietnam with just one brigade (the other two brigades of the 20th Indian Division did not arrive until October) He there for concentrated all his forces in and around the Saigon area.


    Gracey made it clear that he would not stand for any trouble. He issued directives prohibiting demonstrations, meetings and the carrying of weapons as well as imposing a rigorous curfew. Any one disobeying these orders was to be shot. Although these harsh measures where put into place, trouble still continued throughout September with attacks on radio stations, power plants and water supplies. Because he only had one brigade of troops to control such a large area, Gracey had no alliterative but rearm some Japanese units to help put a end to the violence.

    During the first half of October the French forces started to arrive under the command of General Leclerc, the liberator of Paris. Not until December were the French established in sufficient strength to assume some control. By February 1946, the French had arrived in enough force to allow the 20th Indian Division to depart Indochina. In April 1946 the rearguard of the British Force withdrew, having had a total of 50 casualties. Only Indian Troops were engaged here, partly for admin purposes, and partly because all the British battalions were emaciated by repatriation scheme that removed the seasoned elements in a single swoop.

    Truman Administration recognised French sovereignty over Indochina, reversing President Roosevelt's anti-colonial doctrine.
    The US did not have to go to the aid of the South Vietnamese Government, they chose to to counter feared communist expansion. The French debacle should have been enough to show what fighting is like in the Jungles. The British had plenty of experience of jungle warfare in Malaya and Borneo as well as what became termed COIN operations in Aden, Radfan, Kenya plus many others to know how difficult it would be.
     
  17. sparky34

    sparky34 Senior Member

    LECCY ..I suggest you read '' THE BRITISH IN VIETNAM '' by GEORGE ROSIE .
    your comment that GENERAL GRACEY only had the japanese under arms for only a couple of weeke , is way out by months ..,as for your figures of 50 casuallities , well the allied casualities during the period mid-october up to 13 january were given as
    126 killed and 424 wounded
    TOM DRIBERG kept raising it in parlament .the GENERAL TERAUCHI'S soldiers were
    being used again the vietnamese , plus the british people were dismayed to learn that
    we were employing JAPANESE TROOPS in a CAMPAGN that was not a trifling or a
    guerrilla one , but one something quite more important ..
    theres so much in the book to prove GENERAL GRACEY overstepped his remit just to keep order ..
     
  18. Peccavi

    Peccavi Senior Member

    Sparky - read Leccy's words closely "50 British (but should be British, Indian and Ghurkha)" killed - the 126 includes French and Japanese.

    But lets talk of General Humbug - sorry McArthur and the silly assertion that the British (and Japanese) were reponsible for the dual folly of the French and Americans in Indo-China and huge number of American deaths that followed defeat by the Vietcong.

    McArthur was not so solicitous about giving the natives independence in the American Empire of the Philippines when he was in charge - amazing how his view of the British Empire differed from the American one!

    The allies and especially the Americans wanted the Commies kept at bay in Vietnam. British Forces were the only ones in theatre having defeated the the Japanese in Burma. Gracey was ready go early in August but a certain General McArthur put his spoke in the wheel - and demanded that nothing was done until he had reaped the glory of the Japs signing the surrender document - which happened (from memory, 7th September).

    Meanwhile the lawlessness in Vietnam spiralled out of control and the Vietminh squeezed Saigon. The seriousness of the action can be judged by the fact that at least 3000 Vietminh were killed before order was restored.

    Brilliant action by the battle hardened British, Indian and Gurkhas led by a very competent General prevented the Vietminh taking over the country and allowed the (ex-Vichy and no friend of the British) French time to sort out the country. Gracey did what was asked of him. He used Japanese soldiers which he had to. Personally I find this distasteful but the Allies did not want to shed British (and definitely) not American lives when the folks back home had been told the War was won. Americans were certainly not slow to forgive and re-employ ex-Nazis and Japs who could be useful in the coming struggle against Communism.

    With the French in control, they might have granted Independence as the British did in India 1947 and Burma 1948 and after defeating the Communists in Malaya - independence there also. And even the Americans in the Philipines gave them independence but the French - NON!

    So the French could have taken the hint that they were not wanted and left a non-communist, nationalist country, especially as China under Chiang was still non-communist at that time. Why on earth (and I have read Vietnam by Kubrick - twice) the Americans got involved on such a loser, I really can't understand to this day.

    But please don't blame Gracey or the Japanese for the Vietnam debacle.

    Hopefully we can return the essence of the Thread and contribution of our two Chinese\Ameican members which if I am correct want to examine the Japanese atrocities agianst Allied soldiers and compare this with the suffering of the Chinese and the inability of the Japanese to admit their war guilt and airbrush this out of history.
     
    Steve Mac likes this.
  19. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  20. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Well-Known Member

    Long ago was intrigued by the British (Imperial) role in Saigon and nearby parts of French Indo-China after VJ Day, after meeting a veteran in Rhodesia, who had served as Gurkha officer. As a result I read George Rosie's book (cited by Sparky in 2011; this tiny paperback has it's critics and there is a far better book: 'The First Vietnam War' by Peter M. Dunn (published 1985). As I recall Dunn gives General Gracey a fair hearing, a man in a difficult spot; the book is available via Amazon still.
     

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