help needed deciphering records

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by whitehound, May 25, 2012.

  1. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    OK ta, so nobody here can make it out either. I hoped that knowing the context would make it more legible, but I'll have to try it on Rootschat, purely as a piece of illegible handwriting. It's so frustrating, because it's not like it's faded or anything - it's so clear and bold and - wtf? If I'd seen it on its own, without the letters around it, I'd have thought it was Cyrillic.
     
  2. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    OK, somebody on Rootschat suggests it's "I No" - possibly "Registration Identity N° W/611". Would that make sense?
     
  3. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Doesn't it mean "Registration Identity Number" ? In the first image that you posted in #14, it's written underneath "Natl. Registration Identity No."
     
  4. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Well, it looks as if it's attached to the words "Territorial Army", but perhaps that's misleading. What exactly *was* the National Registration Identity Number? Is it possible that he had two - that this means he had one number while he was on Class W reserve, and then another number once he was called up?

    Could there possibly have been so few people on Class W reserve as at April 1944 that his number was 611?
     
  5. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    This link explains the National Registration Identity Number: The 1939 National Identity Card

    I have taken a look at my Great Uncle's E 531 form. There are two R.I references on his too. The second one states "Authority R.I. 420/1"

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Then the W/611 and the RI 420/1 are file/paragraph references. for the corresponding authority. trying to find where the authority is recorded and at what level is a different matter.
     
  7. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    This link explains the National Registration Identity Number: The 1939 National Identity Card

    I have taken a look at my Great Uncle's E 531 form. There are two R.I references on his too. The second one states "Authority R.I. 420/1"


    Thanks. The article doesn't say you could have more than one ID number but it *does* say the identity form recorded whether you were in the army or reserves, so it looks as if maybe you got a new number when your status changed?

    If one of the secondary numbers starts RI and the other RI No then presumably RI is Registration Identity - and wouldn't the W in W/611 just refer to the fact that he was a Class W Reserve?
     
  8. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Next question: what does it mean that Rory had an A & S Group of 66?

    I know A & S had some bearing on leave entitlement because I found the following on a page dedicated to the 12 Devonshires: "All personnel who had returned were despatched on leave. Those with an A & S group no. of under 27 receiving nine days and those with 27 and over receiving 28 days." But that's all I could find. what actually was it and what did A & S stand for?

    This is all new to me: I've worked through several sets of army records before but they were all WWI or earlier. Rory's grandad was on the Nile Campaign and I have very complete records for him, but the forms are very different.
     
  9. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Thanks. The article doesn't say you could have more than one ID number but it *does* say the identity form recorded whether you were in the army or reserves, so it looks as if maybe you got a new number when your status changed?

    If one of the secondary numbers starts RI and the other RI No then presumably RI is Registration Identity - and wouldn't the W in W/611 just refer to the fact that he was a Class W Reserve?

    My Great Uncle was also Class W reserve and there's no W in his code...
     
  10. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    My Great Uncle was also Class W reserve and there's no W in his code...

    OK ta - so the presence of the W is a coincidence, but it may well be the fact that they were both initially on Class W Reserve which generated the extra code.

    Why does one say "Athority RI" and the other "RI No" I wonder - assuming of course that "RI No" is really what that says? They ought to have sent army clerks to legibility class before they let them fill these damn things in.

    Any takers on A & S? It's not on the army's list of acronyms.
     
  11. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    On my father-in-laws attestation form the Nat Registration Identity No is KNOG 313-1-this makes sense has he was in the Knottingley district and he was the first person in the household.

    Next to it, it says "desires eventually to serve in the Royal Engineers I WT"-this also makes sense as he was in Inland Water Transport.


    The other bits you are querying I read as:

    R I No W/611

    Reserve vide (which I think means see or refer to)
    eg reserve- refer to other page R I No W/611

    Hope that makes sense!

    Lesley
     
  12. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    The writing is neat on your records ! :lol:

    I wouldn't read too much into one using "authority" and the other not, but that's just me of course. The example form in the above link says "If a person belonging to [various military, civil forces] , State the Force, Service, Reserve, etc, the authority with whom enlisted and the person's Service Number, if any."

    I've not come across A & S, I'm afraid.
     
  13. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    Hi Rosy
    I agree. I think its best not to get too "hung up" on the authority numbers eg WO this and WO authority that. What is important is knowing which unit he was in and the dates-although the clerks get the dates wrong too often-I had a problem with the dates on my dads records-they were only a couple of years out:lol:.

    I have no idea what A & S is either
     
  14. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    OK, so if the form says "state [] the authority with whom enlisted", and on one form it says "authority RI..." etc and the other says "Enlisted under RI..." etc then RI probably *isn't* "Registration Identity" but some regional body or authorisation code through which they were enlisted. What else could RI stand for? All the army codes suggest is Royal Irish, which doesn't make sense.

    It could be some regional body, since Knottingley and Ampleforth are both in Yorkshire - but they're about 50 miles apart. But again, we don't *know* that the one on my father's form starts "RI" - that's just a best guess. It certainly starts with an R. Maybe R stood for "Ridings" and then the other letters are sub-regions.
     
  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Arm and Service (A & S)- infantry, armour, etc. All occurrences that change a soldier's service are recorded on military documents and all entries must have an initiating authority. These can be from a very long list AIs.AGIs.AGOs,ACI Part II or III orders and on it goes. The authority listed on these documents could indeed be Territorial Forces area codes (there were thousands of official centres at Drill Halls and other offices) or categories of enlistment. They are without doubt file or area/regulation identifiers.



    Arm: Infantry.Armour or other

    Service .Regular.TA.Aux. category of Reserve, recalled to the colours etc.
     
  16. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    Was thinking about RI last night in bed:lol:
    I don't think it is anything to do with the registration address.

    I think it could be something VERY obvious like Reserved Infantry.

    Lesley
     
  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    For someone who used to write training programmes my poor old brains cells should have picked it up earlier. The times I have seen and used RI Number!

    Recruit Intake number xx! Mindful that he was selected for OCTU at Mons (Officer selection course) any occurrences after passing OCTU would not be recorded on enlisted man's records. He would also as we all did change his number from enlisted to commissioned rank.
     
  18. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    Well done Wills.
    Guess I was wrong then:lol:

    Lesley
     
  19. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Wonderful! Thanks Wills.

    I know the authorisation codes are less import than the unit numbers - but until I can read them I don't know which are which... I say this here in case anybody is looking for it on the net - that National Registration Identity Number D.U.N.B. 122 has to be the regional code for Ampleforth College, Rory's boarding school. That's why he's n° 204 in the household. The DU bit is probably Durham, which is fairly near Ampleforth.

    I've been trying to find out what Arm & Service n° 66 was, but there seems to be no list of the codes. Presumably it's either the Grenadiers or Class W/TA Reserve.

    Now,somebody please have a look at the top left of form B200B - which is pegged to the bottom of post #14 - and tell me what Nature of Engagement = D/E means.
     
  20. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Btw, it's a lot more complicated than saying he was selected for OCTU. As you will find when we get to that particular form he did months as an OCTU trainee, then was rejected for reasons which I don't know because it's another string of code letters, then he left the Grenadiers and did a year as a private in the South Staffs, msotly in India, then he was commissioned as an officer in the Ox & Bucks LI - and it seems unlikely he was rejected in the first place because he wasn't thought to be officer material, considering he later made full Lieutenant at twenty. It's all very bizarre.
     

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