F/m Montgomery's Non-fraternisation Policy Letters

For general information - they may have been posted previously:

 

Interesting stuff James. Is there any record of those who did not obey the non-fraternisation rule. From what I have heard and read about none of the frontline soldiers paid it much attention.

 

(Gnomey @ Dec 30 2005, 11:08 PM) [post=43812]Interesting stuff James. Is there any record of those who did not obey the non-fraternisation rule. From what I have heard and read about none of the frontline soldiers paid it much attention.
[/b]

Sorry, Gnomey, I don't know the answer to your question -- I wasn't serving there (didn't serve in the armed forces in WWII -- too young).

James

 

No problem, I was just wondering. I'm sure someone on here knows the answer or had more of an idea than me of it.

 

I know someone who's British father served in Germany, his mother is German
Regards
MG

 

The "Werewolves" were a serious fear, because of two reasons...they had already assassinated the pro-Allied mayor of Aachen, and Goebbels had created "Radio Werewolf" to inspire the "Werewolves" into action. In reality, the underground movement and Goebbels' station were not connected.

However, there were incidents until 1948....one of Monty's liaison officers was killed, and cables strung across German roads to decapitate American and British drivers. Allied mechanics installed anti-decapitation crowbars on their jeeps to deal with that.

By 1948, Werewolf incidents had dwindled. I have a book on the subject. Fascinating stuff.

 

To Kiwiwriter: Apologies from the ranks of the ignorant/ not aware. What were the werewolves, were they an underground resistance movement to the Allies like say the Maquis to the Germans or were they a hard core Nazi group an underground army more of hindrance to stall the Allied advance to allow the evacuation of senior Nazis etc or some other reason.. Many thanks.

 

(lancesergeant @ Jan 22 2006, 07:39 AM) [post=44672]To Kiwiwriter: Apologies from the ranks of the ignorant/ not aware. What were the werewolves, were they an underground resistance movement to the Allies like say the Maquis to the Germans or were they a hard core Nazi group an underground army more of hindrance to stall the Allied advance to allow the evacuation of senior Nazis etc or some other reason.. Many thanks.
[/b]

There were actually two Werewolf organizations. Like so much in the Third Reich, there was little coordination or communication between ministries, which warred like the feudal fiefdoms they were, seeking to "work towards the Fuhrer"and gain his favor as No. 2 in the Reich and his successor.

The primary Werewolf organization was set up by Himmler and his creepy SS, and intencded to be a similar to the Maquis or Tito's guerrillas. Himmler admired Tito immensely. These were supposed to launch the usual guerrilla attacks on the Allies from behind the lines, and their biggest achievements were the killing of the American-installed Mayor of Aachen and one of Field Marshal Montgomery's senior liaison officers. They consisted of fanatical HJ and SS men behind the Allied lines. They ambushed jeeps (usuall with the wire across the road), committed small-scale sabotage, and scrawled graffiti.

The secondary Werewolf organization was set up by Goebbels and his Ministry of Propaganda, apparently with no coordination with the SS, and that was a radio station, designed to encourage Germans to fight agains the Allied invader as guerrillas in the style of the Maquis or Tito's guerrillas. I don't know if Goebbels admired Tito. This radio station was not behind Allied lines, obviously. It started up in early 1945, and shut down by V-E Day. It encouraged guerrilla acts and taunted the Allies with propaganda.

Neither outfit accomplished much. The central weakness was that unlike all the other guerrilla movements of World War II, the Werewolves lacked an outside sponsor to provide weapons, supplies, training, and liberation. The Werewolves would have had to do it all themselves, down to arms fabrication. Given Germany's complete destruction in 1945, and the exposure of its leadership as frauds, sadists, kleptomaniacs, and genocidal killers, there was little popular support for such a guerrilla warfare, and it petered out quickly.

 

(Harry Ree @ Jan 1 2006, 07:25 AM) [post=43859](Gnomey @ Dec 30 2005, 11:08 PM) [post=43812]Interesting stuff James. Is there any record of those who did not obey the non-fraternisation rule. From what I have heard and read about none of the frontline soldiers paid it much attention.
[/b]

Apparently it was SHAEF who issued the strict non fraternisation rule..... no contact with Germans except in the line of duty.Any US troops found violating the rule were fined $65 which led to any propositioning of German girls becoming known as "putting the $65 question".Few soldiers heeded the ban despite being told "Do you know that German women have been trained to seduce you".Allied Intelligence at this point were fearful of a Werewolve campaign which had been threatened in the dying throes of the Third Reich.

Allied soldiers saw it differently and stated "copulation without conversion is not fraternisation".Even officers indulged in circumventing the order.A few however had some agreement with the official line and thought that the German joy at their liberation was as ersatz as their coffee.

In the end SHAEF bowed down to reality and rapidly relaxed the non-fraternisation orders and by 1 October 1945,non fraternisation ceased to be an official occcupation policy.Reality, it had to be when it was known that some top brass had high class German mistresses in tow.One high ranking officer in intelligence whose role was to root out dubious politically unwise liaisons was himself found to be deeply involved with the former mistress of Goebbels.He is recorded as taking her to New York on furlough break.

Very good information posted Jam.It would be interesting to hear what the British punishment for fraternisation was.Possibily a charge sheet.
[/b] I agree. Patton claimed it came from SHAEF as well. But he himself thought it to be a stupid rule. He believed it was a hinderence to progress. He also had a different belief on denazifacation too.

 

(Colonel Gubbins @ Dec 31 2005, 09:20 AM) [post=43820]I know someone who's British father served in Germany, his mother is German
Regards
MG
[/b]

Back in the 1950s, my mother worked with a Berlin woman who married a British soldier, but I am fairly sure he was in the Berlin garrison after the war.

If you ever get the chance to read George Claire's Berlin Days, his account of serving in late 1940s Berlin, you will get a good idea of how the rule failed to work in practice.

(jimbotosome @ Jan 23 2006, 06:46 PM) [post=44754]Patton claimed it came from SHAEF as well. But he himself thought it to be a stupid rule. He believed it was a hinderence to progress. He also had a different belief on denazifacation too.
[/b]

Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.

 

(angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
Don't mistake that as saying Patton was pro-Nazi. Far from it. He was simply able to see things for what they really were. There was tremendous vitriol for the Nazi when in fact some Nazis were simply Nazi only in name. To hate the rank and file Nazi simply because they were a member of the party and lump them in with the cruel and insane ones makes us no better than the latter. We could be visceral bigots toward anyone in the party even if they were in the party only because they needed a job and it was required to have one to feed their families.

But, then again if we do that, without reason, other than detest for the actions of some, then we are no better than they. A bigot is a bigot regardless of what the subject of his or her hate and narrow-mindedness is. Patton hated high ranking Nazi officials and Nazi generals. He believed they were cowards and treated them very harshly which was highly uncharacteristic of him especially in the case of the treatment of officers and soldiers. Unqualified hate simply because it was “politically correct” is still just simply hate. It’s capricious to make a distinction between the two.

He was right in that he said that some Nazis are no different than Republicans or Democrats (Labour vs Conservative parties in the UK?) . They were merely opposing the spread of communism that threatened their country. Yes, it is that simple. There were plenty of inhuman “freaks” in the Nazi party. To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.

Patton’s real problem and what got him reassigned was his opposition to the growing efforts of the Russians to put communists in the power positions in the local governments around him. In his diaries, commenting on the state of things after the war and where they were going he several times wrote how sorry he was that he had survived the war. He wished he would have died in battle and not seen the political aftermath as the communists moved in like jackels. It was in this time that Ike proved himself to be the "coward of cowards" to me.

 

(jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 04:14 PM) [post=44788](angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
.
To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.
[/b]
And what evidence to the contrary shall we take into accounts ? Now if those average citizens were not aware of what was going on "behind closed doors", why is that the Nazis for instance had to stop their Euthanasia program in 1941 ? Or that Heydrich was the most feared man in Germany ? Or that some Munich students wrote some pamphlets against the war of extermination that was conducted in the East in 1943 ?
I'll say that claiming that the average German didnt know what was going on hardly has any ground.

 

On Patton and fraternisation, or rather differently employing Nazis in administrartion before they had been through official "denazification".

He was entitled to his opinions on this, but what he was not entitled to do was disobey official directives, or criticise them openly. He was speaking and acting against official US government policy and lieutenant-generals really cannot do that. Ultimately, in the 1950s, neither could Macarthur.

 

(angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 12:27 PM) [post=44794]On Patton and fraternisation, or rather differently employing Nazis in administrartion before they had been through official "denazification".

He was entitled to his opinions on this, but what he was not entitled to do was disobey official directives, or criticise them openly. He was speaking and acting against official US government policy and lieutenant-generals really cannot do that. Ultimately, in the 1950s, neither could Macarthur.
[/b]
Your synopsis not quite true although I don't doubt you read it from "historians". Patton never disobeyed orders. He always canned any one he was ordered to can. A lot of it was left up to his discretion. It was simply the media there, three of which were specifically assigned full time to try to destroy Patton, and who tried to sow deception to get it done, and this is where most of that myth originated. Patton sacked some “unfit” Nazis on his own as well. What the communists and the leftists in the media in the US at the time wanted was chaos so they could move in to "restore the situation". This was a common ploy of the communists during that period. In a fledgling democracy that's when it is most vulnerable and when communists/socialists are their busiest (ala Iraq today). If you are going to destroy a democracy it is imperative that you get to it in the early stages when it is helpless. Jackals are most active in the presence of a weakened animal of the herd.

In post-war Germany, the only people qualified to carry out infrastructure jobs were often the Nazis who had carried out the jobs for years in the first place. To shut down transportation, the rebuilding of electrical, sewer, water, hospitals, food distribution, etc, you had to have these people as the process of “denazification” was too slow. Patton said he would replace them if he had some qualified alternatives but in most cases he had none. All the news rhetoric and spin, of which your take from the “historians” on the situation, is primarily sourced and based on this insidious drive to get the communists into power and chaos was their only hope in the Allied sectors of Germany. I don’t think there was a question of what Russia was trying to do to Germany immediately after the war. If the Berlin blockade didn’t prove that I don’t know what could have.

This is what ultimately led to the departure of Patton. Patton was on the verge of resigning because Ike wouldn’t stand up to what was going on and Beetle Smith stabbed him in the back by giving credibility to the chiding of the news media that Patton was pro-Nazi. Patton was just about to resign so he could say what he wanted without fear of repercussion and he was going to take the entire issue of what Ike & Company were doing to the legitimate press and blow it wide open before the American people. That’s when Ike “offered” him a reassignment to an Army to put the Beetle Smith fire out. Patton took command of the Army it because it was his hope that the war with Russia would break out while the US and allies had troops there and he viewed that as the best chance to change the course of the future. I am pretty sure he was still going to blow it open in January of 1946 when he was going to resign his commission according to his letters to his wife. But of course the car accident with the 6x6 sort of took care of that. (no I don’t believe that was a conspiracy, just sorry luck).

You might ought to read Patton’s diary on that since he was the key figure in what was going on. Reading the historians of the time is akin to reading the London Times or the New York Times today to find out what is going on in Iraq. Some things never change.

 

(Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 10:43 AM) [post=44790](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 04:14 PM) [post=44788](angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
.
To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.
[/b]
And what evidence to the contrary shall we take into accounts ? Now if those average citizens were not aware of what was going on "behind closed doors", why is that the Nazis for instance had to stop their Euthanasia program in 1941 ? Or that Heydrich was the most feared man in Germany ? Or that some Munich students wrote some pamphlets against the war of extermination that was conducted in the East in 1943 ?
I'll say that claiming that the average German didnt know what was going on hardly has any ground.
[/b] Why don't you ask gestapo who is posting on this forum (today I think). He was an SS officer but claims he was not a Nazi or a Fascist. He like many of them sincerely believed they were doing their duty, just like the British fighting the Irish, the Scots and vice versa. Each believed what they did was for the good of their people not some unmerited hate for an arbitrary group of people. Assuming the average German citizen was like Hitler is what hardly has any ground. It also defies common sense.

 

(jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 10:31 PM) [post=44806](Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 10:43 AM) [post=44790](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 04:14 PM) [post=44788](angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
.
To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.
[/b]
And what evidence to the contrary shall we take into accounts ? Now if those average citizens were not aware of what was going on "behind closed doors", why is that the Nazis for instance had to stop their Euthanasia program in 1941 ? Or that Heydrich was the most feared man in Germany ? Or that some Munich students wrote some pamphlets against the war of extermination that was conducted in the East in 1943 ?
I'll say that claiming that the average German didnt know what was going on hardly has any ground.
[/b] Why don't you ask gestapo who is posting on this forum (today I think). He was an SS officer but claims he was not a Nazi or a Fascist. He like many of them sincerely believed they were doing their duty, just like the British fighting the Irish, the Scots and vice versa. Each believed what they did was for the good of their people not some unmerited hate for an arbitrary group of people. Assuming the average German citizen was like Hitler is what hardly has any ground. It also defies common sense.
[/b]
Yeah sure, someone pops up and claims to have been a SS officer AND a Gestapo official. And we'll have to take it for granted.

And shall I even point out the fact that being aware of something is not the same as being guilty of something or involved in something ? Your initial point was about awareness, not involvement.

 

(Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 05:26 PM) [post=44812](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 10:31 PM) [post=44806](Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 10:43 AM) [post=44790](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 04:14 PM) [post=44788](angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
.
To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.
[/b]
And what evidence to the contrary shall we take into accounts ? Now if those average citizens were not aware of what was going on "behind closed doors", why is that the Nazis for instance had to stop their Euthanasia program in 1941 ? Or that Heydrich was the most feared man in Germany ? Or that some Munich students wrote some pamphlets against the war of extermination that was conducted in the East in 1943 ?
I'll say that claiming that the average German didnt know what was going on hardly has any ground.
[/b] Why don't you ask gestapo who is posting on this forum (today I think). He was an SS officer but claims he was not a Nazi or a Fascist. He like many of them sincerely believed they were doing their duty, just like the British fighting the Irish, the Scots and vice versa. Each believed what they did was for the good of their people not some unmerited hate for an arbitrary group of people. Assuming the average German citizen was like Hitler is what hardly has any ground. It also defies common sense.
[/b]
Yeah sure, someone pops up and claims to have been a SS officer AND a Gestapo official. And we'll have to take it for granted.

And shall I even point out the fact that being aware of something is not the same as being guilty of something or involved in something ? Your initial point was about awareness, not involvement.
[/b] So, you have him convicted without even talking to him? Sounds to me you had already made up your mind on the issue and didn't want any proof and would simply refute anything ever presented no matter what it was. How convenient. But to me it is simply disingenuous and I am not interested in such a discourse. When you see my moniker on a post, before you respond to what I have posted, just assume it is for “serious inquiries only” please. Thanks.

 

(jimbotosome @ Jan 25 2006, 02:09 AM) [post=44814](Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 05:26 PM) [post=44812](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 10:31 PM) [post=44806](Exxley @ Jan 24 2006, 10:43 AM) [post=44790](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 04:14 PM) [post=44788](angie999 @ Jan 24 2006, 07:15 AM) [post=44779]Which was one of the reasons why he was removed from operational command and sent to write history.
[/b]
.
To think that the average citizen in the Nazi party or any other German citizen had any idea of what was going on “behind closed doors” is both emotional and highly irrational based on nothing more than blind anger and a denial of evidence to the contrary.
[/b]
And what evidence to the contrary shall we take into accounts ? Now if those average citizens were not aware of what was going on "behind closed doors", why is that the Nazis for instance had to stop their Euthanasia program in 1941 ? Or that Heydrich was the most feared man in Germany ? Or that some Munich students wrote some pamphlets against the war of extermination that was conducted in the East in 1943 ?
I'll say that claiming that the average German didnt know what was going on hardly has any ground.
[/b] Why don't you ask gestapo who is posting on this forum (today I think). He was an SS officer but claims he was not a Nazi or a Fascist. He like many of them sincerely believed they were doing their duty, just like the British fighting the Irish, the Scots and vice versa. Each believed what they did was for the good of their people not some unmerited hate for an arbitrary group of people. Assuming the average German citizen was like Hitler is what hardly has any ground. It also defies common sense.
[/b]
Yeah sure, someone pops up and claims to have been a SS officer AND a Gestapo official. And we'll have to take it for granted.

And shall I even point out the fact that being aware of something is not the same as being guilty of something or involved in something ? Your initial point was about awareness, not involvement.
[/b] So, you have him convicted without even talking to him? Sounds to me you had already made up your mind on the issue and didn't want any proof and would simply refute anything ever presented no matter what it was. How convenient. But to me it is simply disingenuous and I am not interested in such a discourse. When you see my moniker on a post, before you respond to what I have posted, just assume it is for “serious inquiries only” please. Thanks.
[/b]
So says the smart guy who still cant explain why he switched from awareness to involvement. And noone is going to be surprised at your gullibleness.

I was in the German SS army 172 SS German inf. army.But i also work for Gestapo as you can see at my nick name.

Had you actually known anything about the Waffen-SS veterans, you will know that they never come aboard that kind of forums, and certainly not openly claim that they were "SS officers and Gestapo members (sic)". The last thing they want is to be spammed ad nauseam by neo-nazis fuckwits.
And had you actually known anything about WW2 in Eastern Europe, you would have known that the 17th Waffen-SS division was never engaged in the East (or whatever 172 SS German inf. army means).
The fact that the guy is a loony would have been obvious to anyone with some minimal intellect and some minimal knowledge of the Waffen-SS.

 

In "Gestapo," I feel we have a fake poster for whatever reason.I say fake in terms of what he would like the forum to associate him with.It is a fact that such people do not readily advertise their background but if he is genuine,he seems to be very mentally active for a person who is just short of 90 years of age.

In addition his postings do not reflect the the language of the Second World War era.His location appears to be one hour behind GMT which would not place him in Bulgaria.

In adopting his forum name as "Gestapo" he gives scant repect to the victims of that organisation which was judged to be illegal and criminal.

Jam, there is no evidence that these people were just carrying out their duty.Their sole loyalty was to Hitler and his regime.They all stated "higher orders" as an excuse for their excesses.Simple obedience to orders was no excuse.Those who voluntered for the SS,the Gestapo and the SD were committed Nazis.The only time they had any compassion was towards the end when they dumped blind loyalty to save their own skins.Quite rightly obeying orders as an excuse from these people was judged to have no validity as a defence.

Gestapo's posts seem to have one motivation and that is provocation.