"Every tank became a Tiger"

Discussion in 'General' started by Swiper, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Bucknall himself lost his escort to a 'Tiger' on 13 June. Miles Hildyard, GSO III (I) of 7 Armd paid the subsequently-KO'd aggressor a visit on the way to Lingevres and remarked: "We could see no differences between this Tiger and the Panthers."
  2. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    If anyone wants a full copy of the Hargest notes let me know.
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Not a deliberate bump to this thread, but I think I have seen something similar to this quote from my gd. in 1944 ;)

    And he probably would have said it before Max Hastings: Max Hastings - Wikipedia
    (born 28 December 1945) :)

    Reading through all of the above I was trying to get to grips with which was the earliest attested "Every tank became a tiger" quote of the war though :pipe: Quite a meme!

    A meme (/ˈmiːm/ meem) is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture".

    Ps. First "actual" mention of "Tigers" I think I could see in the transcribed SRY war diaries was:

    "27th June 1944 -
    B Sqn sent out two tps to find out the position in RAURAY. Unfortunately, the Germans had brought up some tps which they cleverly concealed in some trees and knocked out Ray Scott and his trp. Sgts Biddel + Green were also killed during the morning. RAURAY was eventually cleared of the enemy and in the village itself we found about 8 or nine enemy tanks including Panthers + Tigers and Mk IV’s which were in various stages of being knocked out. 2 of these a Tiger + a Panther were in complete working order and we brought them back to our lines."

    Whilst for the 24th L:

    "26th June 1944 - Fierce fighting went on throughout the day and the Regiment found it impossible to advance further than a few hundred yards due to the enclosed nature of the country East of Tessel Wood and the resultant
    complete lack of observation. ‘B’ Sqn engaged targets to the East and succeeded in destroying two Tigers. ‘C’ Sqn remained in observation and had little to report from the right flank apart from small packets of enemy infantry repeatedly penetrating the position, firing their machine guns and then making off."

    Assuming the "quote" - "Every tank became a tiger" refs. seeing tanks that were not Tigers but thinking that these were what they were (but knowing at some point (later?) that they were not) there are various refs. I guess to prior engagements and subsequent ones. For the 24th L - there was "Tiger Night" - which was actually on 11th June 1944.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  4. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    The strange thing is that in Tunisia in 1943, the Armoured Brigades of 8th Army moving westwards were extremely excited about the prospect of fighting the Tiger, and went out of their way to find them. They even sent out "Tiger baiting" patrols to try and lure them into action. I shall load up some war diary extracts when I next stoke up the effort to plough through them.

    As for Normandy, both 8th Hussars (Cromwells) and 3rd Scots Guards (Churchills) considered the Panther to be relatively easy to defeat, as long as it was spotted first. The latter's war diary is available on this site, so you can check this for yourselves.

    Also not generally publicised is the demoralising effect that the Churchill had on the Axis in Tunisia - the sense that it was impossible to escape from. There was a definite "Churchill fear" which has not really been brought out in the histories of that campaign.
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was glancing through this: The 12th SS

    For some of the mentions of "Tigers" in there and re. the p524 (seemingly result #4 I think) just goes to show more of the fog of war:

    "Unfortunately, two Tigers were knocked out at this deciding moment, through the penetration of the frontal armour. This had not yet happened at the invasion front. The Tiger crews feared that they were facing a new anti-tank weapon of extraordinary effectiveness, and stopped the attack" - It was determined after the war that "these two Tigers had erroneously been identified as enemy tanks by the 8.8cm Luffwaffe Flak battery in position near Cagny, and knocked out."

    Prior to that on p377 Meyer mentions in a segment on Epson the first day of the Offensive on 26th June 1944 - the British reporting 3 KO'd Tigers and mentions "The real losses of German Panzers are not known. However, Tigers were not in action there at all".

    Again some discussion/mulling over some of the posts here: Tank Battle,Fontenay/Raury road June 25th 1944 - Feldgrau.net

    & Help Required - Tiger I 334 of SS-Pz.Abt. 101 1944 • Axis History Forum

    Plus: Axis WWII Discussion Group: normandy tiger 1, SS101,1st company..

    About what is real and what is not, and what is in "context" etc. Plus a lot of sifting through various sources etc.

    The war diary for the 24th L has for the 28th June 1944:

    Les Hauts Vents
    28/6/44 In the afternoon, Recce Tp moved out to the Tessel Wood feature and ‘B’ Sqn returned to the Regiment which moved to a fresh defensive position in the Les Hauts Vents area. Recce Tp maintained wireless touch with the Regiment in case the Regiment should be needed to engage the enemy counter attack on the Tessel feature. During the day, Officers and men of the Regiment took the opportunity of examining a Tiger and a Panther tank which had been captured intact by the Sherwood Rangers.

    And as a result of this (quote in bold) and my grandfather's correspondence etc. I think that there should be some pics of some 24th Lancers too with this Tiger and Panther tank.

    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  6. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I sent the photo and film of the Tiger with British crewmen to Stuart Hills a few years back. He identified several of the men and all were from his Regiment. One of Dring's crew (Hodkin) is standing in the MG gunners hatch and Christopherson sitting between Hodkin and the Tiger's gun in the film.

    The claim 3 (not 2) Tigers were knocked out (during GOODWOOD) by 'friendly fire' is just arse-covering.
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  8. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    I haven't heard the term Burp Gun in years. When I was a kid fifties and sixties I remember a lot of the men in the neighborhood (Vets) used the term and I remember my uncle talking about Korean Burp Guns. One neighbor who had to wear a metal leg brace all the time said, "I was hit by a German machine pistol." I remember him saying that very clearly.

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