Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by von Poop, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A complex business for an avowedly racist state, which also may have to compromise somewhat to operate & cooperate outside it's 'racial' boundaries.
    Hypocrisy goes a long way, obviously, but how did Nazi Germany really intend to come to terms with it's Japanese allies and their place in the ideology?

    I'd always thought of it as inevitably involving a sphere of influence compromise should things go well for both regimes, but started thinking about it more today for some reason. I just can't see Ehrenarier as a mask that wouldn't eventually begin to slip.

    Any good books specifically on relations between WW2 Germany & Japan? Websites? Race-related 'Incidents'?


  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Hitler declared that the Japan was an Aryan nation.

    Just the same flexible principle as the Balkans Muslins were afforded a special place in the Waffen SS and Russian Muslin POWs were recruited into German formations.
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    The Handschar come into it, for sure, though their inclusion could at least be a more easily justifiable twisting into the racist principle, and they were within Caucasian bounds,

    The Japanese present a far more difficult case for the Nazi ideologue. The declaration of ehrenarier is one thing, but the Japanese had to be met on an equal footing, rather than just conveniently protected in an almost patronising way for expedient ends.
    The lack of consistency is, as ever, fascinating. As is how hard it is for even the most extreme ideological state to stay true to their ideology in international dealings.
  4. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    The ends justify the means, even in the land of National Socialism. You only have to read the excruciating Nazi writhing about France, particularly about the use of colonial troops. At one point in 1940, France, according to Goebbels is 'a nation of n*****ized sadists' and the call is on for images of 'brutish negroes' to contrast with the blond Aryan. Massacres, ill treatment, the usual nine yards. A few months later, when France is defeated, the mineral situation had been reassessed and Germany's foreign policy is considering an African colonial empire and voila! red Cross parcels and nice friendly photographs with the black POW's. Not quite so well defined, but generally that was the score. I doubt Hitler ever had time for black people, but needs must when you've got no access to bauxite....Considering the official Nazi attitude to the 'Mongol hordes' of the far Russias, a rapprochement with Japan would ostensibly go against the grain, but I'm sure they found some neat racial theory that made it all fit.
  5. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    Perhaps it wasn't just for racial reasons, but economic.
    Japan had similar economic problems to Germany in the 1930S (though for different reasons) and needed to expand geographically. So they invaded China/Manchuria.
    As Hitler's lot invaded Russia (among other places of course.)
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From what I found (link above) there was some resistance within the party about honorary status given to the Japanese. Tension did apparently exist between those who championed expediency and those who clung to idealism; in the end it seems the ambiguity of racial laws which did/should have included the Japanese, and it's actual interpretation, suited Hitler and other Nazis quite well.
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    It was Von Leers with his realpolitik, who wanted the racial laws to be amended from discriminating against 'coloured' to 'Jews'
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  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    .Very interesting that Ehrenarier/Honorary Aryan is described there as a pure propagandic myth.

    There's a Wiki page... Isn't there always.
    Not bad.
    "further in 1934 it prohibited the German press from discussing the race laws when Japanese were involved"
    Hmm, it appears to reference that book quite often on specifics

    1933 - Oh no, you're exempt from the local Race Laws (but not really).
    1936 - Anti Comintern pact - Oh, all right then, you are.
    (If Wiki to be believed - maybe says something about the subject that Wiki's the most solid concentration of 'stuff' I can yet find on the web.)
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    An Aryan Story.

  9. elser

    elser Member

    Hi von Poop

    I,ve often wondered about this and last year i read philip k. Dicks "The man in the high castle" which is set in a world where the allies lost the war and the nazis have taken new york and the japanese control california, with a NEUTRAL buffer zone between the two states. It wasnt that good but ok, it kind of ends abruptly (SPOILER) with japan learning of germanys plan to attack!

    Which, c,mon how long would they have remained friends, it was a rather absurd friendship of conviniance. Both thought themselves superior. I agree with book that germany would probably start the aggresion.
  10. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Za Rodinu likes this.
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

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