Bloody Omaha

Discussion in 'General' started by Peter Clare, Jan 4, 2008.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    At least it wasnt Clarkson presenting it!!
    Why say that?
    I like his two WW2 progs he did, Cain VC & St Nazaire Raid.
     
  2. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well I must confess I didnt see them but I dont really like him on Top Gear. Having said that he works well with the other two. He comes across extremely arrogant, although that may be just the type of show that Top Gear is.
     
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It also fell into the annoying habit of modern History documentaries of pretending to be presenting startling new evidence which overturns previous theories.
    I didn't note any of that kind of balls, and it's my pet hate of populist documentaries too?
    They ran through some possibilities but never seemed to stray fully into the breathless 'Oh my Gawd!' territory beloved of some documentary makers.
    We'll always moan about sketchy coverage of our own little historical interest areas but have to remember these sorts of programmes are aimed at a mass audience and not just hand-tailored for us obsessives, I reckon it was better and 'gentler' than average for prime-time.

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  4. raf

    raf Senior Member

    how come 450 US bombers and the navel bombardment missed there targets. wasnt there any makers placed or people advising.

    from the footage ive seen it did look as if the beach deffenses had been blown up
     
  5. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    guys....as already explained, the bombardment was purely from the air and it MISSED....killed a lot of Norman cows, but not much else....
    Krauss, commander of the 352nd infantry division put only ONE battalion from his division on the beaches(in direct disobediance of an order given him by ROMMEL, and when he threw in his reserves at 1100, they went to the EAST, to British beaches, because the Germans felt that the Omaha situatioon was 'under control'....the other battalion present was from the 716th Infanterie division, so there were only TWO battalions of Infantry, and Krauss had deployed only ONE OF FIVE artillery battalions....the carnage could have been much worse!
    ....The Navy did not launch the Duplex Drive Shermans far enough up the beach....rough surf made surew that only 5 of 34 tanks arrived.......

    The desperate situation was made good by late afternoon....with no German reserves to speak of, the battle devolved into a 'soldiers battle', where individual valour made all the difference, as accurately portrayed in Saving Private Ryan.....
     
  6. raf

    raf Senior Member

    so were did the navel bombardment hit ???

    and how can 450 bombers dropping x amount of bombs, i know they did but some must have it. i heard they flew over the target by 3 seconds.

    also after the first wave and they realised that the guns were intact couldnt the landing craft get a signal to the ships to continue the bombardment.

    thanks
     
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Raf, Christos is correct when he says that. The defences were left largely intact on Omaha when the first wave went in.
     
  8. raf

    raf Senior Member

    thanks gh. ya i watched the show.

    so were did the navel bombardment hit.

    and once the first wave discovered that they were still intact why not continue firing shells.

    or was the americans expecting losses of 6k anyway
     
  9. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    so were did the navel bombardment hit.

    and once the first wave discovered that they were still intact why not continue firing shells.

    or was the americans expecting losses of 6k anyway

    1. The naval bombardment hit way inland, behind the beach defenses and as Christos commented, killed a goodly number of Norman cattle.

    2. Large bore naval guns are not accurate enough to hit targets with friendlies less than 100 yds close to the target. The destroyers tried to move in close enough to provide fire, with one (USS Harding) embarking a whaleboat to send sailors to the shore to assists the 2nd Ranger Batt, by guarding PoWs. They knew was was transpiring and were assisting as best they could.

    3. No, losses were expected to be light. The Geman 352nd Infantry Division had not be identified until right before the landings and it was not expected to be prepared to put up the fight that it did. It had been there for a while and apparently was quite ready to defend the beach. I think it was the only full strength, mobile infantry division on the beaches.
     
  10. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i once read that hunt class destroyers nigh on beached themselves to destroy gun emplacements,is this correct.yours,lee.
     
  11. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Major Scott-Bowden RE. Scotty was the man that landed in the midget submarine to take sand samples. If I recall correctly...Was also the man that took over our sister Company 17th Field Company RE.
    17th Fld Co RE. received a new CO on the 12th of June Major Scott-Bowden RE. he arrived with little more than the clothes he stood up in. Due to the fact he was to return to England immediately after the landings.
    later on a Brigade attack Major Scott-Bowden RE Lt Dixon RE and Lt Jones RE were all wounded with shell splinters. L Dixon for the second time since D day.

    Scott-Bowden was wounded again by an air burst and was evacuated. while assault bridging on the river and canal at Alten Lingen in Germany.
    Sapper
     
  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    i once read that hunt class destroyers nigh on beached themselves to destroy gun emplacements,is this correct.yours,lee.

    Lee,

    I think you are referring to the intervention of 8 US destroyers and 3 British destroyers who seeing the position of those on the Omaha beach,moved to the beach at speed and engaged the German defences directly.(one worked up to 800 yards from the beach) It was said this was the first effective fire support those on the slopes of the bluff had received.This occurred at 0730 and by 0900 some troop elements had actually reached the top of the bluff.

    But,Bradley on the bridge of the USS Augusta at 0900,12 miles offshore was on the verge of abandonning Omaha and transferring the follow up waves of landings to the Eastern Task Force beaches.

    It was a close thing.
     
  13. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    did bradley have the authority to order this.yours,lee.
     
  14. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Lee, If I remember correctly it was the individual actions of the various Destroyer Commanders who used their own intiative.
     
  15. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i was thinking of bradley transfering follow up forces to the eastern beaches as above.yours,lee.
     
  16. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    oh sorry mate!! I think he had got the authority to switch if needed. It would have meant a tremendously chaotic Utah Beachhead though.
     
  17. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i understood the eastern beaches next to first army were british,gold beach was the british 50 div assault beach,under dempseys2nd british army.yours,lee.
     
  18. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i believe commando units were also landing at gold as well,to link up with the american omaha beach area.yours,lee.
     
  19. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    there were lots of units coming in on every tide,very choriographed landings were taking place all along the 2nd armies beaches.iirc,each corps had its own beach area.can anyone help.yours,lee.
     
  20. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    did bradley have the authority to order this.yours,lee.

    General Omar Bradley as the C.O of the US 1st Army,that is in charge of the US ground element of Overlord had the authority to make this decision.Obviously he would have discussed this with Montgomery (his superior commander) who was the overall commander of the 21st Army Group who was not at the front at the time.I would think Montgomery would have been in the 21st Army Group HQ at Portsmouth but ready to procede to Normandy.

    As to the decision to withdraw from Omaha, it might have proved to be disasterous in that the assault task force landings would have been weakened by reducing the assault width from 7 Divisions to 5 Divisions.The German defenders at Omaha would then have been in a position to enhance the defensive postions at Utah and more directly on Gold.There would have been an assault void between Utah and Gold which would have been an advantage to the German defenders

    I do not think that the Allies had any other option therefore, from the planning stage, given the proposed assault divsion width, or in the dynamics of battle, but to take Omaha.

    If you look at the original planners recommendations, that is,the COSSAC document, COSSAC recommended an assault division width of 3 Divisions.When Eisenhower and Montgomery assessed the plan in January 1944,they saw this as a weakness and as the "doers", they changed the plan to increase the assault width to 5 Divisions.The plan was amended to suit Eisenhower and Montgomery and intense work then went into the planning to achieve what was delivered on D Day with 7 assault divisions plus airbourne divisions.One direct result of the Eisenhower/Montgomery involvement to create an amended plan was that the invasion date was posponed from 1st May 1944 by a month and this delay assisted the improved availability of tank landing craft (L.C.Ts) which were thought to be not sufficient.

    One aspect was that the 21st Army Group leadership that Montgomery inherited in the plan was slashed, Montgomery preferring to bring in his own people.
     

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