8th Bn R.T.R. Tank Names

Hi, I came across these names in a post-action report in the 8th Bn RTR report for November 1941 and thought they, and the associated details, might be of interest (WO169/1418):

"Our tank casualties were as follows:-

(a) HORNBILL – commanded by L/C Wray left south of Belhamed with damaged suspension. L/C Wray and Tpr Ritchie, who had never been in a tank before, stuck to their guns and returned with one of the last N.Z. trucks.

(b) HERCULES – commanded by Sgt. Johnson, left at Zaafran with turret jammed, fuel tank cracked in previous action and engine not pulling. This tank and Sgt. Routliff’s defended our right until the 25 Pdr guns ran out of ammunition and withdrew. They then joined the 44th Bn. and fought again with them. Hercules was finally towed to Zaafran by Sgt. Routliff’s tank.

(c) HORATIUS – my own tank, left at the bottom of the escarpment north of Bir Sciafscinf with a large bogie wheel blown off causing suspension arm to ride a track, a small bogie damaged and not turning (this suspension also being damaged) and engine clutch slipping. During the action the gunners’ periscope had blown off cutting Tpr Stewart’s head and a 50 mm solid shot had ricocheted through the bottom of the hull, penetrating the turret floor and bruising Stewart’s heel badly. This prevented the turret from traversing properly and caused the gear lever to go into neutral when traversed in certain positions. Two track plates were so badly damaged that they were only holding by one cracked link. We changed these under heavy shell fire after crawling back about three miles to 4th Brigade H.Q.

(d) HILDA – commanded by Sgt. Routliffe [sic?]. This tank was brought back to Egypt with one top roller and the commander’s periscope blown off and the driver’s flap damaged. Its part in the action is given under (b) above.

(e) HAL – commanded by Sgt Barnett was also brought back to Egypt with a top guide roller blown off and an idler wheel and bracket damaged. This tank remained with me throughout the action and only withdrew when the N.Z.s retired. A typical example of the coolness shown by all crews is that the driver of this tank, L/C Fraser, wrote a letter home during the action.

[...]
G.H. SUGDEN, 2/Lieut.,
14 Troop, “C” Squadron,
8th Bn., R.T.R."

The 8th Bn war diary is quite detailed for its time both before and during Operation Crusader. I'd be happy to post up loads more if anyone is interested. There are interesting details of night exercises before 'CRUSADER' starts and much of interest in both the narrative and post-action reports.

Regards

Tom

 

Tom, a few years ago I started a post "War Diary 8RTR Crusader November 1941" to try and uncover more detials of the British side of an incident involving my father. Could you please have a look to see if you can offer any additional info
Thanks in anticipation

 

Hi Tom,

Thanks for those I will add them to the Name Database and credit them to your post.
Do you know if these are all Valentines?
I already have the following:

Vickers Light VIB
HOVE T8113
Vickers Light VIC
HORNCHURCH T4326
Matilda I
HIGHBURY, HITCHIN T8102
Matilda II
HAIFER T10463, HOBO T6867, HONITON T6937, HORACE T6934, HORNBILL, HORSHAM T7355, HUDDERSFIELD T7353, HYTHE T6944
Valentines
HAL, HAL II T17364, HAWKHURST IV T27314, HEADCORN T17380, HECTOR IV T17477, HELEN, HERNE BAY T27316, HICKORY I T27142, HILDA,HORATIO, HOTSPUR, HULL, HYTHE IV T27657
Crusader
GHURKA T16567
Churchill
HANNAH T68855, HILDA T31553
Sherman III
HARRIER, HATCHET, HORNBILL, HORNET
Sherman V
HOBO
To be confirmed
HAKE, HALIFAX, HECTOR, HENGIST

If anyone can add anything it would be appreciated.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Hi Geoff,

I've just had a look back at that thread from 2020 and saw I offered to look then but MarkN said there was nothing of relevance about 'A' Sqn on 28 Nov 41. That's true, the 8 Bn War Diary doesn't mention the mistaken firing by the tanks on the NZ RAP, but there are some useful contextual details. I'll post them up on that thread.

Regards

Tom

 

Hi Kevin,

It's not 100%, but I would say that it is 99% probable that they are all Valentines as they all seem to have belonged to Sugden's troop in C Sqn which would have been all I tanks.

There is also a mention of HECTOR, which I see you already have, in Major Veale's account of events on Nov 23rd:

"20 minutes later “Hector” came into rally with Gunner – Tpr. HALLEN killed, Comdr. – Cpl. GRAVES badly wounded, Driver O.K. – Tpr. BAILEY. Turret holed in two places on the gunner’s side. Holes were about 2½” in diameter. Inside of turret, including wireless, badly damaged. Penetration appeared to be clean and about the size of 50 m.m., flaking apparent on the inside, as was the case with the other A/Tank hits even when no penetration took place."

Regards

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

I think you are right that they are all Valentines as troops were not mixed under normal circumstances.
I wonder if HECTOR is actually Hector IV, to loose 3 Hectors would certainly be unlucky and a hint to change the name altogether.
Please post anything you find.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Reasonably certain the battalion was a 100% Valentine show in November 1941.

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi Andreas. I don't recall the source, but I think the squadrons were valentines but the HQ was Matilda C/S & Lt Mk VI.

 

Hi David,

From the war diary, I would agree with Andreas and say that the 8th Bn started Crusader as a 100% Valentine unit. The war diary records the arrival of driblets of Mk IIIs and the handing over of Mk IIs to the other Bns in 1 Army Tank Brigade. The details during the fighting and immediately after are somewhat confused (with the Bn at one point taking over some Mk 3 (American) tanks that were found abandoned! By early December 1941 the remnants 11 'crock' Mk IIIs and the single Light Tank were withdrawn into Tobruk and handed in for repair.

If you are interested I can post up the extracts that mention tank receipts and strengths etc.

Regards

Tom

 

Always interested Tom!
Thanks.

 

Me too Tom please.

Cheers

Kevin

 

I also just checked and there's only one mention I can find of BHQ receiving a tank and that's a Mark III in exchange for a Mk. II palmed off to 42 RTR.

They definitely had Mark VI lights as well, but nobody considered these anything else but battlefield taxis, so I don't really care very much about tracking them.

All the best

Andreas

 

Here is the name "HEREFORD" Photo from "https://www.facebook.com/tankmuseum...tank-regiment-in-north-afr/10154251105400842/


A Valentine II, named Hereford, of A Squadron, 8th Royal Tank Regiment in North Africa.

 

Nice one Geoff,

Added to the Tank Name Database.

Cheers

Kevin

 

So is there a way of tracking "T27446" to a commander? I know very little about tank markings , but understand "175" = 8RTR and Triangle = A Squadron?
Thanks

 

Hi Geoff,

I guess the war diaries may have these details or possible casualty lists, 8th RTR related books another possible option.

Cheers

Kevin

 

I didn't find any tank numbers in the war diary - but I copied that file years ago so might have missed something I suppose as I only copied whatever sparked whatever interested me in that diary in the first place.

Regards

Tom

 

They usually won't. It is highly unlikely to have tank numbers. It is highly unlikely to have individual tank commanders named. It is also highly unlikely to have any non-officer names, at all.

It is vanishingly unlikely in my experience to have tank numbers and tank commanders linked, and I have looked at all the armoured unit war diaries for CRUSADER.

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi Andreas,

It was just a suggestion for Geoff. I thought perhaps there might be something like the attached from 45th RTR. See T144961 AMAZON at the bottom.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Fantastic details if you were looking for them! Thanks for posting