6 young Guardsmen recruits killed 1 Sep 1940

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by Naukit, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. Naukit

    Naukit New Member

    Good morning,
    I am new to this forum and a couple of days ago I posted this message in the section about the Guards in Caterham, but I'm not sure that anyone will read it...
    Does anyone know anything about The Guards Depots at Caterham being hit on 1 September 1940?
    I have information from a website that "Drill Shed No.1 was destroyed and “A”. Block Married Quarters and the Sergeants’ Mess damaged by enemy action on the 1st September."
    One of my relatives 2663069 Stanley Albert Lisher of the Coldstream Guards, and six other young recruits were killed in this incident. They had only enlisted a few weeks previously. Stanley was 20 years old. He was buried in Brookwood cemetery and I have a photo of his grave. However, i would like to know something bout the circumstances of his death. I've searched the internet and also British Newspaper Archive and I can't find anything...
    Thank you for any information you are able to offer.
     
  2. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    list of Guardsmen below who died on 1/9/40
    headstones of Nolan and Boor attached for your info

    PARKIN, WILLIAM HENRY Guardsman 2663047 01/09/1940 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom Grave 5600. KNOTTINGLEY CEMETERY [​IMG]
    JOHNSON, JESSE Guardsman 2653580 01/09/1940 36 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom Sec. B/22. Grave 39. NOTTINGHAM NORTHERN CEMETERY [​IMG]

    WARE, CHARLES Guardsman 2662717 01/09/1940 29 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom Sec. 2A. Grave 91. LIVERPOOL (YEW TREE) ROMAN CATHOLIC CEMETERY [​IMG]

    NOLAN, ANDREW Guardsman 2663067 01/09/1940 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom Sec. G.4. Grave 59. OXFORD (ROSE HILL) CEMETERY [​IMG]

    LISHER, STANLEY ALBERT Guardsman 2663069 01/09/1940 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom 5. B. 6. BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY [​IMG]

    WRIGHT, GEORGE WILLIAM Guardsman 2663072 01/09/1940 20 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom Sec. W.7G. Grave 368. DARLINGTON WEST CEMETERY [​IMG]

    SCOTT, JOSEPH Guardsman 2663055 01/09/1940 20 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom 5. B. 5. BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY [​IMG]

    BOOR, SIDNEY ALFRED Guardsman 2663064 01/09/1940 20 Coldstream Guards United Kingdom COGENHOE (ST. PETER) CHURCHYARD
     

    Attached Files:

  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  5. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    States they possibly died at RAF Kenley
    [​IMG]
    Joseph Scott was born in Sheffield to Robert Scott and Clara Victoria (nee Winter), his birth being registered in the second quarter of 1920. The family lived in Kilnhurst, and after attending Kilnhust Board & National Schools he was employed by Sheffield Corporation.
    Joseph enlisted in the Army on 6 August 1940 and became a Guardsman in the Coldstream Guards, service number 2663055. He was sent to the Guards Training Depot in Caterham, Surrey at the height of the battle of Britain which raged overhead. Kenley Airfield was only about one mile north of the barracks and the comings and goings of fighter aircraft was a common noise. The new recruits woke on Sunday 1 September 1940 to cloudy patches with sunny periods in the morning, temperatures were a little higher than average as the cloud burned off about midday giving way to fine and sunny conditions. At 10:50 hours about 50 enemy aircraft crossed the coast near Dover and other raids followed. By 11:00 hours about 100 enemy aircraft were over Kent and Thames Estuary, some penetrated to Kenley, Biggin Hill, Gravesend, Hornchurch and North Weald. The again at 13:40 hours some 70 enemy aircraft crossed the coast between Dover and Dungeness. A second wave of about eighty aircraft followed. Kenley and Biggin Hill were the objectives, and as the attack continued on to Kenley, Dornier 17 bombers came in low. In the two attacks of the day by German bomber formations, RAF fighter stations had suffered badly. Although Kenley and Biggin Hill had taken the brunt of the damage, Hornchurch, North Weald, Gravesend and Detling also took a battering.
    Less than 4 weeks after joining up Guardsman Joseph Scott was killed in an air raid on Kenley, along with six Guardsmen from the Coldstream Guards. He was 20 years old and was buried in Brookwood Military Cemetery in Surrey


    https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=scott&GSfn=joseph&GSbyrel=all&GSdy=1940&GSdyrel=in&GScntry=5&GSob=n&GRid=17666277&df=all&
     
  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    There was certainly intense aerial activity over South East England on that weekend which is reflected by the Luftwaffe aircraft losses.

    "The hardest day" of 18 August 1940 had passed but Sealion was very much on as history reveals.The front line RAF fighter airfields, Kenley,Biggin Hill,Hornchurch and North Weald,the backbone of the defence of the South East were the frequent targets of the Luftwaffe as Goering planned to bleed Fighter Command dry....once Fighter Command had been defeated the Germans expected Britain would collapse within weeks.

    It's not surprising that army personnel were found on RAF stations.their role at this stage of the war was one of airfield defence for Ack Ack defence and presence against the anticipated invasion.Hence army casualties are found recorded on RAF stations as the army continued to have the responsibility for airfield defence until the formation of the RAF Regiment.

    These army contingents were usually commanded by the older army officer who in some cases had served in the Great War.
     
  7. hutt

    hutt Member

    Attached intelligence report from 1st AA Division for this date...Umm cant seem to post any images? I'll do so as soon as the site is 100%
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Turned off until software move is complete.
    It's getting there.
    may I suggest using Photobucket/Flickr etc
     
  9. Pebblebush

    Pebblebush Junior Member

    Hi, I am researching the names on the Worthing WW2 memorial and Stanley's name is on it. Is it possible for you to give some information about Stanley. I have found a record that states that he lived at an address in Worthing but I can't at present find anything to confirm this. Can you help please.
     
  10. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    As Gdsn Lisher:poppy: only served in Coldstream Guards for about a month you’ll likely find very little mention of him in online Military Records and his Army service file will be quite thin.

    You should be able to find him in the 1939 Register on Findmypast.

    Good Luck
     
  11. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Well, the Lisher families seem to be either around Sunderland or Worthing.
    There could be both a reason for Coldstream Guards and the Worthing connection:-
    LISHER, REGINALD. Private. Service Number 10243. Died 14/09/1914. Aged 18.
    No.3 Coy. 1st Bn. Coldstream Guards
    Son of James and Ellen Lisher, of Ivy Cottage, Lancing, Sussex.
    Commemorated at LA FERTE-SOUS-JOUARRE MEMORIAL.

    1939 Register
    Lisher Household (8 People) Kirkdale Wimbling Avenue , Worthing R.D., Sussex, England
    Elsie M Lisher 04 Oct 1919 Female Chemists Assistant Single
    George Lisher 10 Aug 1887 Male Market Gardener Own Account Married
    Lilian F Lisher 24 Jan 1882 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
    Hubert Fisher 27 Sep 1917 Male Market Gardener Assisting Father Single

    LISHER, CHRISTOPHER GEORGE. Private. Service Number TF/200701. Died 26/03/1917. Aged 21
    4th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment
    Son of Mr. and Mrs. Lisher, of 2, Zant Cottages, Wick, Littlehampton, Sussex.
    Commemorated on the Jeruslaem Memorial.

    LISHER, CHARLES ALFRED. Lance CorporalService Number SD/2137. Died 08/03/1918. Aged 22
    13th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment. Awards: M M
    Son of Frederick George and Amelia Lisher, of 48, Orme Rd., Worthing.
    Buried at FINS NEW BRITISH CEMETERY, SOREL-LE-GRAND. Cemetery/memorial reference: IV. C. 31.

    Charles Lisher is on the WW1 Memorial and the Holy Trinity Memorial, I can't trace the 404 Names on the WW2 Memorial, so no help there, I'm afraid.
    Just to complicate your life, CWGC shows 475 WW2 casualties related to Worthing, but some may be Worthings in other lands....
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945
    Name: Stanley Lisher
    Given Initials: S A
    Rank: Guardsman
    Death Date: 1 Sep 1940
    Number: 2663069
    Birth Place: Sussex
    Residence: Sussex
    Branch at Enlistment: Foot Guards
    Theatre of War: United Kingdom
    Regiment at Death: Coldstream Guards
    Branch at Death: Foot Guards

    UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current
    Name: Guardsman Stanley Albert Lisher
    Death Date: 1 Sep 1940
    Cemetery: Brookwood Military Cemetery
    Burial or Cremation Place: Brookwood, Woking Borough, Surrey, England
    Has Bio?: N
    URL: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-...


    The only Stanley I can find is the one below who as you can see also has a middle initial A
    England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2005
    Name: Stanley A Lisher
    Mother's Maiden Surname: Humphrey
    Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1920
    Registration district: E Preston
    Inferred County: Hampshire
    Volume Number: 2b
    Page Number: 662

    Others
    Violet G Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1928 E Preston Hampshire

    Josephine R A Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1921 E.preston Hampshire

    Stanley A Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1920 E Preston Hampshire

    Irene J Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1923 E.preston Hampshire


    TD
     
  13. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Tricky, been looking at this as well. Note that East Preston is Sussex, near Brighton, and not Hampshire as Ancestry state. I have found a Lisher family in Worthing and East Preston but can't quite work out who is who.
     
  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
    Name: Sidney Albert Lisher
    Gender: Male
    Birth Date: abt 1884
    Enlistment Age: 31
    Marriage Date: 2 Sep 1911
    Marriage Place: Registra Office East Preston
    Document Year: 1915
    Residence Place: 1 Bartlett Cottages, Broadwater
    Regimental Number: 230472
    Regiment Name: Labour Corps
    Number of Images: 14
    Form Title: Short Service Attestation
    Other Records: Search for 'Sidney Albert Lisher' in other WWI collections
    Family Members:
    Name Relation to Soldier
    Sidney Albert Lisher Self (Head)
    Amelica Sanders Spouse
    Sidney Montague Lisher Child
    William George Lisher Child
    Mildred Lisher Child


    Trouble is I cannot find a Lisher/Humphrey marriage

    TD
     
  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    All England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915

    Sidney A Lisher 1911 Jul-Aug-Sep East Preston Sussex

    Annie Lisher 1912 Apr-May-Jun East Preston Sussex

    Annie M Lisher 1912 Oct-Nov-Dec Lewes Sussex

    Elsie C Lisher 1915 Apr-May-Jun East Preston Sussex


    TD
     
  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    All England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005

    Leonard Fisher (Corrected to Lisher) Apr-May-Jun 1919 Steyning Sussex Ethel M Kifford

    Lennox J Lisher Oct-Nov-Dec 1919 East Preston Sussex Nellie Isard

    Frederick H Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1918 East Preston Sussex Frances K M Churcher

    Thomas B Lisher Oct-Nov-Dec 1919 Steyning Sussex Agate

    Edward V Lisher Jul-Aug-Sep 1920 East Preston Sussex Daisy Paige

    Edith M Lisher Oct-Nov-Dec 1919 Steyning Sussex Alfred Gregory


    TD
     
  17. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    You are right, no apparent marriage for Lisher/Humphrey, that is where I got stuck. Perhaps, if her maiden name was Humphrey, she was widowed and therefore her marriage to Lisher was under a different name.
     
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  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Using Geoff's search engine, criteria 01/08/1940-30/09/1940 + COLDSTREAM GUARDS
    001 BOOR SA 2663064 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS
    002 JOHNSON J 2653580 1ST BN 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS SEC. B/22. GRAVE 39.
    003 LISHER SA 2663069 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS 5. B. 6.
    004 NOLAN A 2663067 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS SEC. G.4. GRAVE 59.
    005 PARKIN WH 2663047 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS GRAVE 5600.
    006 SCOTT J 2663055 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS 5. B. 5.
    007 WARE C 2662717 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS SEC. 2A. GRAVE 91.
    008 WRIGHT GW 2663072 - 01/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS SEC. W.7G. GRAVE 368.

    009 BOUGHEY JF 124549 - 31/08/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS
    010 HEALD G 2660526 - 04/09/1940 COLDSTREAM GUARDS SEC. B. GRAVE 767.


    From The Guards and Caterham, page 184, two events, one which mentions Coldstream guards in August, likely he's describing the fatalities from 1st Sept '40.

    "Blitz Alarms
    Caterham Guards' Depot under aerial attack are memories of WW2 by former Grenadier (2621112) Kenneth Timmis who did his recruit training in 1940. Lists of dead and injured were lengthening and he came within an ace of becoming a casualty himself. He wrote from his home in Gerona, Spain:


    During another daylight raid that August, I stopped at the entrance to one of the shelters and watched a mass dogfight in the sky. Strange, at that height they looked just like model aircraft. I could hear spent cartridge cases falling nearby. Then I heard the banshee shriek of dive bombers and took cover. The shelters are in a rectangle enclosing the cricket pitch and had been grassed over.

    The noise of the exploding bombs was deafening, one close to our shelter. We emerged when the all-clear sounded to find that one of the Coldstream shelters had received a direct hit, and a number of recruits killed. The bodies were wrapped in blankets and taken into the Depot chapel.


    Almost every night, we heard the drone of German bombers on their way to attack London. Once, when we were doing our shining parade by candlelight and listening to the squadrons passing overhead, we heard the whistle of a bomb coming down and were quickly on the floor. We waited for the exploding, but heard nothing. An unexploded bomb, we though, and got on with our tasks.

    Daylight, however, exposed the full honour of the situation. On our way to the mess room for breakfast, armed with our mess tins and cutlery, we saw that Victoria Block had been practically destroyed. Bodies of dead Guardsmen had been laid out on the grass nearby. I remember the body of one poor chap was still hanging in the ruined building."
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From The Guards and Caterham, page 186
    Bombs and Bed Blunders

    The Caterham area was among the districts most seriously affected by enemy action during the Battle of Britain.

    Aerial dogfights daily pitted Spitfires and Hurricanes against the Messerschmitt escorts of the German bomber squadrons heading for London. High altitude vapour and exhaust trails of the opposing fighters wove deadly patterns across the blue skies of the Summer of 1940.

    Many bombs fell in and around Caterham. Crashed aircraft, British and German became regular if temporary features of the countryside. There were two significant reasons for the close attention the German Luftwaffe paid to the town and its immediate area.

    The first was Kenley - close by and one of the ring of RAF fighter stations defending the capital. The second was the Guards Depot, which had mushroomed into what was virtually a military town where thousands of recruits of the five Guards foot regiments were undergoing training. Both were specific, priority targets for low-level attacks.

    Life in the Depot during these dangerous days is described by former Grenadier Fred Whittle who now lives near Kendal in Cumbria:


    "The Depot had consisted of large, three-storey grey stone barrack blocks beside the parade ground, but when I arrived in July 1940 as conscript Grenadier recruit 2619944 Whittle F. they were surrounded by acres of Nissen-type huts, erected hurriedly to accommodate the huge call-up influx.

    The intensity of the German raids increased through that Summer and the frequency of attacks severely affected training. Warning sirens meant we had to break off and take to the slit trench open shelters around the cricket pitch. Most raids were of short duration, but each cost at least one training recruit.

    ...

    On other nights we were less fortunate. One raid succeeded in destroying one of the smaller barrack blocks and a number of Welsh Guards recruits were killed or injured. * The Depot chaplain kept a log of enemy bombs which fell within the barracks boundary. There were more than forty by the time I left the Depot."


    Geoff's search engine again, criteria 01/08/1940-30/09/1940 + WELSH GUARDS
    001 BARTLETT ETR 2737259 9TH BN 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. B. 15.
    002 BENNETT CF 2737268 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSCLASS C. EAST CONS. GRAVE 278.
    003 BENNETT GC 2737269 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. G. 2.
    004 BOULTER WJ 2737271 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. B. 13.
    005 CAMERON AH 2737277 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. B. 14.
    006 DAVIES S 2737485 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSNEW GROUND. SEC. F. GRAVE 13.
    007 DOWLING JW 2737285 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSSEC. 37. GRAVE 5840.
    008 DURRENT WG 2737609 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. C. 1.
    009 FRANCIS T 2737471 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSSEC. B. GRAVE 862.
    010 HOWARD L 2737770 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSSEC. M. ROW G. GRAVE 8.
    011 JENKINS J 2732082 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. C. 4.
    012 KING FJT 2737303 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS5. C. 3.
    013 POWELL FDR 2737714 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSEAST OF CHURCH.
    014 ROBERTS J 2736031 2ND BN 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSPLOT Y. GRAVE 540.
    015 SEARE E 2737504 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSUNCON. SEC. GRAVE 670.
    016 SPENCER PR 2737712 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSBLOCK 23. GRAVE 208.
    017 WILLIAMS JE 2737516 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSBLOCK 19. GRAVE 35A.
    018 WILLIAMS RT 2737526 - 11/09/1940 WELSH GUARDSEAST OF CHAPEL.

    019 THOMAS WJ 2736568 - 30/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS
    020 HEGARTY AJ 2736799 - 30/09/1940 WELSH GUARDS

    * I wonder what happened to that log ..would it have been sent to Wellington Barracks or even the Guards Chapel there?




    From The Guards and Caterham, page 190
    The Caterham Boys
    Captain LE Burrell QM MBE was a Grenadier instructor in charge of a boys' squad at Caterham in early 1930, under the gathering shadows of WW2:


    "The Irish Guards' Roberts Block was damaged by a bomb one Sunday afternoon during one of the many raids on the RAF's fighter station at nearby Kenley. Later, during the Blitz, Victoria Block sustained bomb damage and a bomb on the shelters in the cricket ground area caused a number of casualties. There were many raids on the Depot while I was there and before my battalion left to join 201 Guards Brigade in the Middle East."
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  20. hutt

    hutt Member

    These were presumably the raids that resulted in this sad incident. From 1st AA Divisional diary WO166/2106
     

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