420 Sqn RCAF & Wellington LN431

Here are the crew from the CWGC.

Name: PARR, JOHN MARTLAND
Initials: J M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
Date of Death: 15/08/1943
Service No: 1431080
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


Name: DADGE, WILLIAM GEORGE HENRY
Initials: W G H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
Age: 22
Date of Death: 15/08/1943
Service No: 1168383
Additional information: Son of George and Elsie Dadge; husband of Gladys
Dadge, of Chelston, Torquay, Devon.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

Name: NETTLE, DESMOND JOHN
Initials: D J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
Age: 21
Date of Death: 15/08/1943
Service No: 1320693
Additional information: Son of William John and Elsie Amy Nettle, of Weston-super-Mare,
Somerset.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

Name: NORGROVE, ERIC STANLEY RAYMOND
Initials: E S R
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: 420 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn.
Age: 22
Date of Death: 15/08/1943
Service No: 1312417
Additional information: Son of Hubert James Norgrove and Winifred Hester
Norgrove, of Headington, Oxford.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9, Column 1.
Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL

Name: BOYD, DANIEL DAVID
Initials: D D
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal Air Force
Unit Text: 420 Sqdn.
Date of Death: 15/08/1943
Service No: 652467
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 8, Column 1.
Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL


One thing, didn't the Wellington have a crew of 6 ?

The normal crew of a Bomber Command Wellington on operations would be 5.

Pilot

Observer. Undertaking navigational and bomber aiming duties.

Two Air Wireless Operators/Air Gunners

One Air Gunner.

These last three crew man would share front turret and rear turret duties with the other undertaking the Wireless Operator duties as his prime function

Occasionally a second pilot, an advanced pilot under training flew as the 6th men for the purpose of experiencing bomber operations prior to taking over his own crew. Sometimes referred to as the "Second Dicky" ,the practice could result in the loss of two pilots,one probably experienced and the "Second Dicky" with hardly an operation to his name and who would be otherwise destined as part of the "successor" structure.However it was the only method of giving raw pilots experience of air operations prior to them taking on the greater responsibility of skippering their own aircraft.

When the four engined heavies came into service in early 1942,Bomber Command,the new flight crew designation,Flight Engineer was introduced which eliminated the need for a second pilot,this crewman as well as handling the engine performance /fuel tank selection was also trained to act as second pilotto takeover in an emergency.Enhanced training at the OTUs,OCUs and the provision of special Lancaster Finishing Schools resulted in a continual stream of aircrew to mann new Lancaster Squadrons as large numbers of Lancaster aircraft rolled off the production line.

Experienced pilots at Group Captain level were occasionally lost when operating as second pilots,quite a number were lost in four engined heavies on operations which their crewing could be challenged.It did lead to the unnecessary loss of some Station Commanders.

 

I'm confused with this raid. "Bomber Command War Diaries" does not list it as such.

 

Thanks for clarifying that Owen.

 

The normal crew of a Bomber Command Wellington on operations would be 5.
Pilot
Observer. Undertaking navigational and bomber aiming duties.
Two Air Wireless Operators/Air Gunners
One Air Gunner.


Harry is correct about Wellington crews in the early part of the war, and about the introduction of Flight Engineers on four-engined types.

But in mid-1942 the role of Observer was split into Navigator and Bomb-Aimer, as the workload was becoming too heavy for one man. The Wireless Op was no longer an Air Gunner as well - with increasing radio beam guidance such as Gee the W/Op was fully occupied working as a team with the Navigator and B/Aimer. The B/Aimer also operated the front turret, which was very little used in practice on night ops, and in any case there wasn't much room for two men - if a front gunner was present he was virtually sitting on the prone Bomb Aimer. (An exception was the dams raid where front gunners were carried to try to eliminate the AA and searchlights).

Therefore the other three men on this Wellington in 1943 would have been Navigator, W/Op and Rear Gunner.

Adrian

 

Owen
I've seen the Brooklands Wellington as well. Beautiful, especially given that is was at the bottom of Loch Ness for 50 years.
I was discussing it with a very helpful museum guide, named Maurice Curteis. He hinted that he had flown in WW2, and eventually I plucked up courage to ask him what he had flown. I was astounded when he told me he had flown Hampdens - they were around at the beginning of the war, so he must have been at least 85! Hampdens get a knocking in many history books, but he said he liked them - though he admitted they were more comfortable for the pilot and observer than the two WOP/AGs.

Adrian

 

They all are at Brooklands, lovely place, nice feel. (My father spent some time there launching chickens at canopies from a specially designed gun testing for birdstrike resistance ) Wonder if we talked to the same chap? If I remember right the bloke we met had done ove 95 missions over Germany? (can that be right?) Must be one of the luckiest statistical survivors of WW2.

I didn't ask how many missions Mr Curteis had done. He could have been the same man: but I wondered why he only mentioned that he had flown Hampdens and not later types. Could he have been shot down and become a POW I wonder? I wish I had asked more, but I didn't want to seem intrusive by asking too many personal questions.

The Museum is much more informal than the better known ones. I sat in the cockpit of a Hunter and the Captain's seat of the VC10 (which I had seen being flown into Brooklands back in '87 while working in Byfleet and was reunited with this year!). And of course there is the mock-up of a Wellington fuselage that you can walk through, close to the real one.

Adrian

 

Can't offer much to this thread, Owen's done it all.

Movements of No.420 Squadron during WW2.

19 December 1941. Formed at Waddington
January 1942. Equipped with the Hampden.
7 August 1942. To Skipton-on-Swale.
August 1942. Re-equipped with the Wellington III.
16 October 1942. to Middleton St.George.
February 1943. Re-equipped with the Wellington X
16 May 1943. en route to North Africa.
4 June 1943. To Telergma.
19 June 1943. To Zina.
29 September 1943. To Hani East.
17 October 1943. en rout UK.
6 November 1943. To Dalton.
12 December 1943. To Tholthorpe.
December 1943. Re-equipped with the Halifax III.
April 1945. Re-equipped with the Lancaster X.
12 June 1945. en rout Canada.
12 June 1945. To Debert Nova Scotia.
5 September 1945. Disbanded.


RAF Squadrons - C G. Jefford.

 

Hello

I have just come across your posting and the thread. The tail gunner in this crew, Daniel David Boyd was my father's half-brother.

He was actually called David John Boyd (known in the family as "Davey") but he had been a peace-time soldier in the late 1930's and had had a few scrapes with authority, so that when war came he enlisted in the RAF and altered his name slightly, to make a clean break from his earlier service record!

He was born in Belfast - I do not know his date of birth or what age he was when killed but he must have been in his mid-30's. We have never chased down his service record. His father too was David John Boyd and had been a Royal Navy stoker before and during WW1, dying in 1939.

I don't know when or where Davey enlisted in the RAF or how he ended up in a Canadian bomber squadron. He had been working in Egypt and the eastern mediterranean before the war so we have sometimes wondered if he enlisted in Egypt. He was by all accounts a pretty colourful character!

He was married with (I think) a daughter and when he was killed his wife had all his effects, so I don't think either my aunt or my father has any photos from his time in 420 squadron. However I will ask my aunt if she has any letters and if so, if they mention any other crew members.

We knew he was killed on a raid "over Salerno" so it was interesting to learn specifically which raid his Wellington was lost in, and to see the lists of all the raids and the description of the bombing campaign generally. I imagine the casualty rate during 420's tour in N. Africa was fairly high, presumably because a lot of the targets were beyond the range of figher cover

My aunt, Davey's half-sister, visited the Malta memorial several years ago, when I had found form the CWGC site that he was commemorated there. My father and I plan to do the same at some point.

Best wishes

 

Hello dboyd

Welcome to the forum.
Many thanks for adding a bit more info, Davey was certainly a colourful character. Look forward to more posts.

Regards
Peter

 

dboyd,

Welcome to the forum.
It is always nice to get that personal piece of information, it adds icing on the cake so to speak, for the thread.

Regards

Tom