1st Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

Hello,

Apologies for resurrecting a long-dead thread, but I was hoping to get some more information about the movements of the 1st Battalion at the start of the Battle of Crete.

My great uncle Second Lieutenant John Rollo Large (190307) died on the 23rd of May 1941 fighting for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in Crete.

According to the above (many thanks to dryan67) and what I have read elsewhere this likely means that he died around Tymbaki:

I am due to visit Crete in August and would ultimately like to pay my respects to my uncle and the many others who died. To my shame, being the 21 year old brother of my grandmother and twin of my great uncle, both who have passed, John's memory has faded. This is something that I would like to rectify.

Does anyone have or know where I can find more details as to the movements of the Battalion on the 23rd to help me pinpoint the right place to pay my respects?

Thanks,

Luke

 

Here are a few more details from Graham's regimental history of the 1st Battalion:

 

Luke,

I would just like add that Brigadier R.C.B. ANDERSON, D.S.O., M.C. did another battalion history of the [1 A& SH .] On page 42, APPENDIX To Chapter III -- Casualties In Crete Officers Killed ( 2/Lt.J.R. Large!)

I'm only speed reading at the moment, but things do not seem the same between each others narratives. I will have to check.

Stu.

 

Many thanks to you both, I appreciate the insight that your knowledge and experience allow.

I will endeavour to pick up copies of both of these books, it is great that a record exists of his final movements to ensure that his sacrifice is not forgotten by the family.

For many that lost their lives, their tender age means they didn't have children. With their parents long gone and their brother's and sister's slowly passing, indivually memories of them are fading. Having such extensive records available is a great way to ensure that their memory lives on, despite the passage of time.

 

Luke,
if you don't mind me asking, are you only interested in Chapter III, The Battle for Crete, or Chapter II, Sidi Barrani and after as well?
It seems a hell of a lot of money to folk out for both copies. If you shop about, you may get both of them for a reasonable price? If you cant get Anderson's book for a decent price, then come back to me & I will copy the the two chapters for you. I would go for that book.

The image below is from page 42 has i mentioned in my last post. More detail than Graham's book. Click on image if required.

Taken from the last paragraph on previous page.

Of the 655 all ranks that embarked at Alexandria on the 18th May, only 312 disembarked on the 29th May, besides those wounded and killed in action, over 300, stranded on the south coast, fell into the hands of the enemy, and these included the Second-in-Command, Major G. A. C. Macnab, and 11 other officers, including the Quartermaster and his staff, the medical officer & his stretcher bearers, and the Padre. The R.S.M., 2 C.S.Ms., 2 C.Q.M.Ss., signallers, pioneers, carrier and transport drivers, Intelligence section, pipe-major and pipers and half the anti-aircraft platoon were also numbered among the prisoners. As will been seen in the next chapter, these crippling losses were to prove a tremendous handicap for a long time to come. Poor chaps.

Some details are in one version, but not in the other.

Regards
Stu

 

Thanks. I managed to get both for a reasonable price (£25ish), and am happy to buy despite the brief mention, it will be nice to have a mention to show my children and eventually their's when they hit that part of the education. I have Dutch grandparents who were part of the Resistance, it was a shame that John didn't make it out f the other side too.

I will read up around it to get a bit more of an idea where as it doesn't seem that the Kaireti Farm exists anymore.

Looking forward to visiting over the summer and trying to trace the final steps.

 

Luke, you have done rather well to obtain both of them for that price ( I've seen some of the battalion histories) of the A&SH go for silly amounts of money. More pics below from the Royal Artillery Commemoration Book 1939-1945.

 

Hello!

4537031 Private Robert Moate was my great uncle. He think he served in the 1st Battalion as mentioned being in Palestine.

We believe he was taken PoW in Crete in 1941 and went to Germany.

Does anyone know which PoW camp he might have been taken to?

Thank you

 

Hi Hollybobs,

Information taken from WO 392/1. GERMANY & GERMAN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES IMPERIAL PoW ALPHABETICAL LIST. I would of posted the relevant pages, but its a PDF document & one is not sure how to post them. I normally work in Jpeg! Page 357.

Camp No. P.o.W No. Name & Initials. Rank. Army No. Regt, or Corps. RO.

4D. 12126. Moate, R.A. Pte. 4537031. A.&S.H. 24.

Camp No 4D, is a Stalag Camp & was in Torgan, (ELBE). By the way, Moate, is a rare surname & (the only one in the file!) RO 24
(is Code Numbers Allotted to Record Offices, 24) Rifle Corps RO, Winchester. This office may not exist anymore? Not sure how to find out? Others may be able to guide you has what you do next? If you do require the file for your records, then do say & i will send it onto you?

Edit: Hope you can understand the above? IT LOOKS DIFFERENT FROM HOW I TYPED IT OUT BEFORE I POSTED IT.. Come back to me if you are not sure of anything?

Regards,
Stu.

 

Hi Stu,

This is fantastic! Thank you very much for looking for me, we are delighted to know where Bob was between 1941 and 1945.

Yes, I too found that he was the only Moate in the records I've looked at!!

Having done a little bit of reading I understand that PoWs at Stalag 4D were sent to work camps. He was riddled with skin cancer and said he got it because he was made to work outside all day as a PoW. Is there a way of finding out which camp Bob went to and what he did?

I've also read about PoWs liberation questionnaires, are these accessible?

Forgive me, I'm a newbie! At the records office, if one still exists in Winchester what might we find on him?

Lastly, in your opinion would he have been held in Germany from 1941 or moved there from Italy at a later date?

Apologies for all the questions and many thanks again for your help

Best wishes,
Holly

 

4537031 R A Moate, 1st Bn., A&SH. Reported Missing 23/05/1941 Crete. Later confirmed as POW. Held in Camp 4D, Prisoner number 12126. from casualty lists on Find my Past.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Hi,

Stuart Avery has alerted me to your post.

Your best way to make progress will be to make an enquiry with the Swiss Red Cross in September 2020 for a copy of your great uncles POW papers via this link -

Requests for information about people held during Spanish Civil War or Second World War: Quarterly limit reached

You need to be quick off the mark on the day the enquiry window reopens and check the link at 8am UK time and quickly complete the online application form that should be available at that time. If it isn’t there check the site every 30 minutes until you see it. The application window usually closes by mid morning.

You get a written reply from Red Cross through the post no less than 4 months later with the full history of his camp movements plus (usually) a copy of the first capture (post) card sent to his next of kin .

However Red Cross papers will not show movements to Work Camps (Arbeitskommando). That information will be recorded on his Post Liberation Questionnaire - if he completed one (it wasn’t compulsory and not all POW did).

Unfortunately the POW questionnaires are not digitized and it will need a visit to the National Archives in London to look for the paper file unless you start a new topic asking for a “National Archives” look up and a member is good enough to do it for you (restricted visiting rules to NA at the moment).

Good Luck

Steve

PS

WW2 Records Office at Winchester is long gone. His service file is held by UK MOD in Glasgow and they will provide a copy at a cost of £30 but it may take some time due to ongoing Covid restrictions. Service files don’t usually have POW details.

Requests for personal data and service records: a detailed guide

 

Hi Holly,
Its just a thought, the town of Torgan, may be be situated near the River Elbe in Germany?

I've not tried Google Earth!

Steve,
thank you.

Regards,
Stu.

 

Hi Tullybrone,

Apologies for the late reply and a big thank you for all of the information you've given me, that's very helpful.

I'll be sure to try and get a copy of his papers from the Swiss Red Cross next month.

Best wishes,
Holly

 

Hi Stu,

Thank you, yes it is!

I was wondering if he might have been held in Italy first, as I'd read others captured on Crete were.

But as yet I can only find that he went to camp 4D in Torgau and from there he could have been posted anywhere up to 160km away to work.

Thanks and best,
Holly

 

Holly,

I'm pleased that you have come back.

Steve, may have something to say about Torgau /Torgan? He did mention that it was where the American & Russian Army's met up at the end of the Second World War. Trust me, it a most that you make contact with IRC.

That nice chap called Steve, found out some info on my behalf regarding my Dad's, Farther. He was rather pleased & so was i Well worth the four months it will take for the info you will get back! Its free of charge.

Regards,
Stu.

 

Hi Stu,

It's in the calendar! I'll be sure to get in touch with them.

Best wishes,
Holly

 

Hi Holly,

If your interested, i can post some pages from the German perspective? It will take some time to copy! I mean the 23rd of May.

I'm sure i will not get a spanking from one of the mods.. Its a good book in two parts.

Not cheap.

Regards,
Stu.

 

Stuart Avery,
I just came across your post above of pages 42/43 from 'History of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 1st Battalion 1939-1954'. They had a list of Argyll's who got away on an MLC, & refers to (presumably) more detail in Ch IV. My father & others in the AIF were in the same MLC & I wonder if you could post any relevant pages from Ch IV? The only libraries in Australia with this book are in Canberra, which I cannot get to.

Regards..

Frank Millen