12th SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' in Normandy

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Jonathan Ball, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

  2. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The toughest of all German units, and the one that was our greatest enemy everywhere we went The 12th SS
     
  3. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Good footage but presented very well to look like it was all "one way traffic" , good propaganda.
     
  4. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    The toughest of all German units, and the one that was our greatest enemy everywhere we went The 12th SS

    What were your personal experiences of the Hitlerjugend Brian?
     
  5. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    We were constantly up against them. They were a bloody tough lot, in my estimation the best! But also the most murderous. In the end we made a terrible mess of them. But wherever we went there they were.... the bloody 12th SS.

    They murdered our men in cold blood after they captured them. And it got round what had happened.
    Sapper
     
  6. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    They murdered our men in cold blood after they captured them. And it got round what had happened.
    Sapper

    Thanks for that Brian.

    Is this in reference to the Canadian Prisoners at Abbaye Ardenne or soldiers of the British 3rd Divison?
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Jonathan.
    Obviously its a very long time ago now. But if my memory serves me? They killed our men by shooting them (in an Orchard??) and the Canadians elsewhere
    .But I do recall quite clearly that they murdered both Canadians and British prisoners.

    I do recall that some how or other, the news got round. It may be that 12SS men that may have surrendered.... never got the chance.

    There was also the case, where 12 SS waved a white flag of surrender, only for another to open fire with a spandau, when our men went forward to accept their surrender. They hung the officer responsible at the post war Nuremburg trials....
    Cheers
    Sapper
     
  8. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Thanks again Brian.

    I've not yet looked at the British prisoners you mention and it will be interesting to do so and identify who they were. Maybe these are the source of what you heard as the bodies of the Canadian Soldiers were not discovered until late 1944 and early 1945?

    The Canadian POW's were killed at Abbaye d'Ardenne. For anyone interested the following is a useful and concise summary of events from Veterans Affairs Canada.

    WWII: Abbaye d'Ardenne - Canada at War

    And a summary of the proceedings in the trial of Kurt Meyer after the war.

    The Abbaye Ardenne Case: Trial of SS Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer. United Nations War Crimes Commission, 1948
     
  9. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I can recall that the news of the murders got round.. How? Don't ask...I do not have a clue...

    It was around that time that "Hitlers Edict" This was a an order by the Fuhrer; that any commandos captured should be executed in the field, The commandos were identified by their commando knives. Trouble was, that as Assault troops we all had commando knives with the scabbard down the long left hand side trouser pocket.

    The rule was. If you are In danger of being captured, make sure you ditched your commando knife.That explains why sometimes digging in the bottom of a foxhole you could find a knife.

    The bloody silly things I remember!
     
  10. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    James S likes this.
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  12. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    All lower ranks were apparently born in 1926 and hence the name Hitler Youth Panzer Division. So 18 year olds in 1944.
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks SDP,

    I saw some accounts that the average age there of this division was around 19 - which was actually quite similar to many units of British / other Allied troops. Though it is often remarkable just how young they might look. If being served a pint I'd certainly expect someone would be asking them for ID.

    The film in post#1 :



    Says at one point (around 3.30mins in) it is showing some of the fighting around the town of Bayeux in the "little coastal villages" - though I'm not sure how far inland the German filming was (or even if this is actually what the film really represents).

    Is anyone aware of any matching of this particular film to places on any places on a map, that might have been done?

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The footage is from Die Deutsche Wochenschau Nr. 719 which was released on June 16th 1944. From 11m 50s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCducL04Iv0

    The tanks appear to be Canadian. Most likely June 7th and Sherbrooke Fusiliers (27th CAR) and North Nova Scotia Highlanders at Authie.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  16. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Far younger in fact. Average ages of British soldiers were much higher. They vary somewhat mind but usually in the 20s.

     
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I noticed some info here: http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/young-german-ss-soldier-date-location-unknown/

    "SS recruiters for the division accepted boys as young as 14 into the ranks. Also by judging from the helmet cover he has on it looks to be the “pea” pattern cameo type which did not show up until late ’44/early ’45. So it’s probably in France."

    [​IMG]

    My grandfather wrote that some of them looked to be "14" - but opinions differed, with some saying more like "16" - but he himself was 36-37 then and I know myself "as you get older" - 16-18 years olds (and so I guess new recruits etc.) seem to look progressively less like "their age" in much the same way that "Policemen seem to be getting younger" every year.

    "If regular army, officers can join aged 18 to 26 years and soldiers can join between 16 and 32 years and 11 months. If joining the Territorial Army, officers or soldiers can join between 16 and 32 years and 11 months. In all cases parental consent is a requirement if under the age of 18."

    And: http://www.army.mod.uk/join/How-to-join.aspx


    How old do I need to be to join the Regular Army?

    To join as a regular soldier you need to be at least 16 years old, although you can start the application process earlier, with your parents' permission. If you're under 18, you'll also need parental consent to join. You should be in Army phase 1 training before your 33rd birthday.
    To apply to become a regular officer you need to be between 18 - 28 years and 11 months, although you can apply for sixth form and university sponsorship before you reach this age. If you're over 30, you may be considered on a case by case basis, if you can get sponsorship from a regiment or corps during the application process. Higher age limits for professional or specialist applicants may apply.
    If you're going from serving soldier to officer, you can attend AOSB up to the age of 28 provided that you arrive at RMAS before your 29th Birthday. Your career profile and realistic potential as a Deferred Entry officer must be carefully considered. It is vital to compare your prospects in the ranks and as a Late Entry Officer, against your long term prospects as a DE officer.
     
  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was looking for some pics and info on the tanks (and tank losses) of the 12th SS Panzer Division: tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division - Google Search

    And there is a thread here: My question is reference to the 12th SS Panzer Division "HJ" and the tactical numbers - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    Re. the numbering of 12th SS Panzer Division "HJ" tanks that mentions a few.

    And there is a blog here: Bunker 3030: Beginners Guide to the German 3 Digit Numbering System

    On "to the actual 3 digit number. These break down simply as...
    1st number is the company the vehicle belongs to.
    2nd number is the platoon the vehicle belongs to.
    3rd number is the individual vehicle number."

    "Some divisions varied their entire numbering system, such as the 12.SS-Panzer Division. They started their vehicle numbers from 5, thus a platoon commanders vehicle would be numbered (for the 1st platoon, 7th company) 715, followed by 716, 717, 718, and 719."
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  19. steelers708

    steelers708 Junior Member

    SS Panzer Regiment 12 had the following tactical numbers.

    Rgt. Stab: Rgt Kommandeur 055
    Rgt Adjutant 054
    Ordonnanz-Offz. 053
    Aufklarungszug 056-060

    I.Abteilung

    Abt. Stab Kommandeur 155
    Adjutant 154
    Nachr.Offz 153
    Aufklarungszug 156-160

    I.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 105
    Kp.-Truppfhr 104
    1.Zug/Zugf. 115
    116-119
    2.Zug/Zugf. 125
    126-129
    3.Zug/Zugf. 135
    136-139
    4.Zug/Zugf. 145
    146-149

    2.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 205
    Kp.-Truppfhr 204
    1.Zug/Zugf. 215
    216-219
    2.Zug/Zugf. 225
    226-229
    3.Zug/Zugf. 235
    236-239
    4.Zug/Zugf. 245
    246-249

    3.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 305
    Kp.-Truppfhr 304
    1.Zug/Zugf. 315
    316-319
    2.Zug/Zugf. 325
    326-329
    3.Zug/Zugf. 335
    336-339
    4.Zug/Zugf. 345
    346-349

    4.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 405
    Kp.-Truppfhr 404
    1.Zug/Zugf. 415
    416-419
    2.Zug/Zugf. 425
    426-429
    3.Zug/Zugf. 435
    436-439
    4.Zug/Zugf. 445
    446-449

    II.Abteilung

    Abt. Stab Kommandeur 555
    Adjutant 554
    Nachr.Offz 553
    Aufklarungszug 556-560

    5.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 505
    Kp.-Truppfhr 504
    1.Zug/Zugf. 515
    516-519
    2.Zug/Zugf. 525
    526-529
    3.Zug/Zugf. 535
    536-539
    4.Zug/Zugf. 545
    546-549

    6.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 605
    Kp.-Truppfhr 604
    1.Zug/Zugf. 615
    616-619
    2.Zug/Zugf. 625
    626-629
    3.Zug/Zugf. 635
    636-639
    4.Zug/Zugf. 645
    646-649

    7.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 705
    Kp.-Truppfhr 704
    1.Zug/Zugf. 715
    716-719
    2.Zug/Zugf. 725
    726-729
    3.Zug/Zugf. 735
    736-739
    4.Zug/Zugf. 745
    746-749

    8.Kp
    Kp.Fuhrer 805
    Kp.-Truppfhr 804
    1.Zug/Zugf. 815
    816-819
    2.Zug/Zugf. 825
    826-829
    3.Zug/Zugf. 835
    836-839
    4.Zug/Zugf. 845
    846-849

    What info on tanks and losses were you after exactly as I have some info on both.
     
  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks "steelers708"

    Just generally interested in what is known/unknown about these at present, though I was looking at some pics of 219 and some of the associated posts and threads re. it elsewhere and trying to see in his instance if there was a specific one that detailed its fate.

    Tank 219 Normandy - Google Search

    But some of the details seemed quite hard to pick through. I was also scaning through the Meyer book on the 12th SS and trying to see what in particular he was saying about the fates of the individual tanks there.

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016

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