12th SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' in Normandy

An old German newsreel...

LiveLeak.com - The 12th SS Panzer division in action: Normandy June '44

 

The toughest of all German units, and the one that was our greatest enemy everywhere we went The 12th SS

 

Good footage but presented very well to look like it was all "one way traffic" , good propaganda.

 

The toughest of all German units, and the one that was our greatest enemy everywhere we went The 12th SS

What were your personal experiences of the Hitlerjugend Brian?

 

We were constantly up against them. They were a bloody tough lot, in my estimation the best! But also the most murderous. In the end we made a terrible mess of them. But wherever we went there they were.... the bloody 12th SS.

They murdered our men in cold blood after they captured them. And it got round what had happened.
Sapper

 

They murdered our men in cold blood after they captured them. And it got round what had happened.
Sapper

Thanks for that Brian.

Is this in reference to the Canadian Prisoners at Abbaye Ardenne or soldiers of the British 3rd Divison?

 

Hi Jonathan.
Obviously its a very long time ago now. But if my memory serves me? They killed our men by shooting them (in an Orchard??) and the Canadians elsewhere
.But I do recall quite clearly that they murdered both Canadians and British prisoners.

I do recall that some how or other, the news got round. It may be that 12SS men that may have surrendered.... never got the chance.

There was also the case, where 12 SS waved a white flag of surrender, only for another to open fire with a spandau, when our men went forward to accept their surrender. They hung the officer responsible at the post war Nuremburg trials....
Cheers
Sapper

 

Thanks again Brian.

I've not yet looked at the British prisoners you mention and it will be interesting to do so and identify who they were. Maybe these are the source of what you heard as the bodies of the Canadian Soldiers were not discovered until late 1944 and early 1945?

The Canadian POW's were killed at Abbaye d'Ardenne. For anyone interested the following is a useful and concise summary of events from Veterans Affairs Canada.

WWII: Abbaye d'Ardenne - Canada at War

And a summary of the proceedings in the trial of Kurt Meyer after the war.

The Abbaye Ardenne Case: Trial of SS Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer. United Nations War Crimes Commission, 1948

 

I can recall that the news of the murders got round.. How? Don't ask...I do not have a clue...

It was around that time that "Hitlers Edict" This was a an order by the Fuhrer; that any commandos captured should be executed in the field, The commandos were identified by their commando knives. Trouble was, that as Assault troops we all had commando knives with the scabbard down the long left hand side trouser pocket.

The rule was. If you are In danger of being captured, make sure you ditched your commando knife.That explains why sometimes digging in the bottom of a foxhole you could find a knife.

The bloody silly things I remember!

 

Perhaps the Massacre at Chateau d’Audrieu ? Canadian and British Troops.

Educational Guides - Murders at the Château d’Audrieu: A Case Study

 

Looking at this picture, from: http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panzer4/panzer-iv-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend-normandy-2/

I was trying to hazard a guess as to what the average age here might have been: "Panzer IV tank, 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend Normandy 1944"



And... http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panzer4/panzer-iv-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend-normandy-3/

 

All lower ranks were apparently born in 1926 and hence the name Hitler Youth Panzer Division. So 18 year olds in 1944.

 

Thanks SDP,

I saw some accounts that the average age there of this division was around 19 - which was actually quite similar to many units of British / other Allied troops. Though it is often remarkable just how young they might look. If being served a pint I'd certainly expect someone would be asking them for ID.

The film in post#1 :



Says at one point (around 3.30mins in) it is showing some of the fighting around the town of Bayeux in the "little coastal villages" - though I'm not sure how far inland the German filming was (or even if this is actually what the film really represents).

Is anyone aware of any matching of this particular film to places on any places on a map, that might have been done?

All the best,

Rm.

 

The footage is from Die Deutsche Wochenschau Nr. 719 which was released on June 16th 1944. From 11m 50s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCducL04Iv0

The tanks appear to be Canadian. Most likely June 7th and Sherbrooke Fusiliers (27th CAR) and North Nova Scotia Highlanders at Authie.

 

Thanks "M Kenny"

I was looking at the maps here: http://web.archive.org/web/20040812013048/http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/maps/maplist.html

Particularly: http://web.archive.org/web/20040609211656/http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/maps/Nor_5_6_44.jpg


In-conjunction with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Joint_Military_Symbology

As well as some of the other maps pasted variously elsewhere.

Re. Authie : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authie,_Calvados

There's another of these scenarios here: http://www.fireandfury.com/scenarios/bloodhonourauthie.pdf

 

Far younger in fact. Average ages of British soldiers were much higher. They vary somewhat mind but usually in the 20s.

 

I noticed some info here: http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/young-german-ss-soldier-date-location-unknown/

"SS recruiters for the division accepted boys as young as 14 into the ranks. Also by judging from the helmet cover he has on it looks to be the “pea” pattern cameo type which did not show up until late ’44/early ’45. So it’s probably in France."



My grandfather wrote that some of them looked to be "14" - but opinions differed, with some saying more like "16" - but he himself was 36-37 then and I know myself "as you get older" - 16-18 years olds (and so I guess new recruits etc.) seem to look progressively less like "their age" in much the same way that "Policemen seem to be getting younger" every year.

"If regular army, officers can join aged 18 to 26 years and soldiers can join between 16 and 32 years and 11 months. If joining the Territorial Army, officers or soldiers can join between 16 and 32 years and 11 months. In all cases parental consent is a requirement if under the age of 18."

And: http://www.army.mod.uk/join/How-to-join.aspx


How old do I need to be to join the Regular Army?

To join as a regular soldier you need to be at least 16 years old, although you can start the application process earlier, with your parents' permission. If you're under 18, you'll also need parental consent to join. You should be in Army phase 1 training before your 33rd birthday.
To apply to become a regular officer you need to be between 18 - 28 years and 11 months, although you can apply for sixth form and university sponsorship before you reach this age. If you're over 30, you may be considered on a case by case basis, if you can get sponsorship from a regiment or corps during the application process. Higher age limits for professional or specialist applicants may apply.
If you're going from serving soldier to officer, you can attend AOSB up to the age of 28 provided that you arrive at RMAS before your 29th Birthday. Your career profile and realistic potential as a Deferred Entry officer must be carefully considered. It is vital to compare your prospects in the ranks and as a Late Entry Officer, against your long term prospects as a DE officer.

 

I was looking for some pics and info on the tanks (and tank losses) of the 12th SS Panzer Division: tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division - Google Search

And there is a thread here: My question is reference to the 12th SS Panzer Division "HJ" and the tactical numbers - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Re. the numbering of 12th SS Panzer Division "HJ" tanks that mentions a few.

And there is a blog here: Bunker 3030: Beginners Guide to the German 3 Digit Numbering System

On "to the actual 3 digit number. These break down simply as...
1st number is the company the vehicle belongs to.
2nd number is the platoon the vehicle belongs to.
3rd number is the individual vehicle number."

"Some divisions varied their entire numbering system, such as the 12.SS-Panzer Division. They started their vehicle numbers from 5, thus a platoon commanders vehicle would be numbered (for the 1st platoon, 7th company) 715, followed by 716, 717, 718, and 719."

 

SS Panzer Regiment 12 had the following tactical numbers.

Rgt. Stab: Rgt Kommandeur 055
Rgt Adjutant 054
Ordonnanz-Offz. 053
Aufklarungszug 056-060

I.Abteilung

Abt. Stab Kommandeur 155
Adjutant 154
Nachr.Offz 153
Aufklarungszug 156-160

I.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 105
Kp.-Truppfhr 104
1.Zug/Zugf. 115
116-119
2.Zug/Zugf. 125
126-129
3.Zug/Zugf. 135
136-139
4.Zug/Zugf. 145
146-149

2.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 205
Kp.-Truppfhr 204
1.Zug/Zugf. 215
216-219
2.Zug/Zugf. 225
226-229
3.Zug/Zugf. 235
236-239
4.Zug/Zugf. 245
246-249

3.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 305
Kp.-Truppfhr 304
1.Zug/Zugf. 315
316-319
2.Zug/Zugf. 325
326-329
3.Zug/Zugf. 335
336-339
4.Zug/Zugf. 345
346-349

4.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 405
Kp.-Truppfhr 404
1.Zug/Zugf. 415
416-419
2.Zug/Zugf. 425
426-429
3.Zug/Zugf. 435
436-439
4.Zug/Zugf. 445
446-449

II.Abteilung

Abt. Stab Kommandeur 555
Adjutant 554
Nachr.Offz 553
Aufklarungszug 556-560

5.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 505
Kp.-Truppfhr 504
1.Zug/Zugf. 515
516-519
2.Zug/Zugf. 525
526-529
3.Zug/Zugf. 535
536-539
4.Zug/Zugf. 545
546-549

6.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 605
Kp.-Truppfhr 604
1.Zug/Zugf. 615
616-619
2.Zug/Zugf. 625
626-629
3.Zug/Zugf. 635
636-639
4.Zug/Zugf. 645
646-649

7.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 705
Kp.-Truppfhr 704
1.Zug/Zugf. 715
716-719
2.Zug/Zugf. 725
726-729
3.Zug/Zugf. 735
736-739
4.Zug/Zugf. 745
746-749

8.Kp
Kp.Fuhrer 805
Kp.-Truppfhr 804
1.Zug/Zugf. 815
816-819
2.Zug/Zugf. 825
826-829
3.Zug/Zugf. 835
836-839
4.Zug/Zugf. 845
846-849

What info on tanks and losses were you after exactly as I have some info on both.

 

Thanks "steelers708"

Just generally interested in what is known/unknown about these at present, though I was looking at some pics of 219 and some of the associated posts and threads re. it elsewhere and trying to see in his instance if there was a specific one that detailed its fate.

Tank 219 Normandy - Google Search

But some of the details seemed quite hard to pick through. I was also scaning through the Meyer book on the 12th SS and trying to see what in particular he was saying about the fates of the individual tanks there.

All the best,

Rm.