Zhukov--As cruel as Stalin?

Discussion in 'General' started by machine shop tom, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. BulgarianSoldier

    BulgarianSoldier Senior Member

    1877 Russian soldiers come on bulgarian aid during our 500 years ottoman slavery, thats one of the reasons we love russians and we kissed there ass during ww2..
    Other reason is that we are slavianians same race, same fate, same history.
    This was a respond for Tom's replay :)

    Dani
     
  2. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Senior Member

    1877 Russian soldiers come on bulgarian aid during our 500 years ottoman slavery, thats one of the reasons we love russians and we kissed there ass during ww2..
    Other reason is that we are slavianians same race, same fate, same history.
    This was a respond for Tom's replay :)

    Dani

    Thank you Dani.

    tom
     
  3. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Senior Member

    let us, gentlemen, not pretend that the national leaders like Saddam, Hitler, Mao, Churchill, Stalin or Roosevelt can differ from each other.




    .

    Well, for starters, Roosevelt and Churchill were elected.............

    and didn't kill millions of their own (or other) people.

    :rolleyes:

    tom
     
  4. raf

    raf Senior Member

    thats the point i was looking for thanks tom.
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'd acknowledge that any leader of a large state has to be something of a cold-blooded bastard in order for that state to survive within the world of realpolitik, particularly so in times of war.
    There is however a question of degree, Stalin was colder than most. That may be nearly as much a function of the contemporary politics of the Soviet Union as one of personality but it remains true.

    I've no doubt any of the other great WW2 'War-leaders' could have been as harsh in the same situation, but they weren't and couldn't be in 'the same situation'.
    So it's entering the dodgy world of speculation; Churchill can't be judged for collectivisation just as Stalin can't be judged for Dieppe. But there's plenty of other grim events that throw less than a rosy glow over the Red Monarch.
    Admire him or not it's hard to deny that his hands were exceptionally bloody, much of which would, & could, have been avoided by other men.
     
  6. BulgarianSoldier

    BulgarianSoldier Senior Member

    Well, for starters, Roosevelt and Churchill were elected.............

    and didn't kill millions of their own (or other) people.

    :rolleyes:

    tom
    So damn true, there are no good comunists !
    I lived while Bulgaria was a communist coutry and i didn't like it a bit :)

    Dani
     
  7. raf

    raf Senior Member

    but can the same be said about bush and blair killing there own.....sorry of topic
     
  8. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Just a moment people.....Georgi Zukhov, as an ex-member of the 1st Cavalry Division 'clique', was a favorite and 'crony' of Stalin..... Zukhov and others cannot seperate themselves from responsiblity for the execution of their own soldiers on ALL sections of the front, when Stalin sent Georgi to act as the Maximum Leader's "Troubleshooter"'.......lets just put it all in perspective.....Zukhov should have lost his job after 1941, just like Buddenny, Timoshenko, Voroshilov....ALL incidently, part of that same '1st Cavalry Division clique".....Any Comments from the Russians on this site....they will know more of this.....
     
  9. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Ah....and I'm not an American....but I do object to a man of the calibre of FDR being lumped into the same catagory as people like Mao or Stalin....

    FDR was a man true to humanity......Winston , in my view, kept him as the 'public' face, a trustworthy member of the Big Four that could be relyed upon to give the "straight dope".....


    I remain convinced that Winston used this very naivetee' of FDR to not only gurantee American entry, but to gurantee it with a 'Europe First' policy......
    I admire Churchill, too, and object to his inclusion in the list of BUTCHERS, even though his decisions in both World Wars were sometimes less than competent.
     
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    maybe they did, but still - shook hands with Stalin...
    Mind you, Von Ribbentrop shook hands with Stalin too. He did a lot of handshaking!! LOL :D
     
  11. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    von Ribbentrop.....that sorry excuse for a diplomat (ex-champagine salesman) would've shaken hands with the Devil if he thought he could turn a profit.....and he was dealing with a tyrant after all.....
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Yes indeed Christos, the point is that Stalin was the man who shake hands with anyone even the devil if he thought he could turn a profit
     
  13. BulgarianSoldier

    BulgarianSoldier Senior Member

    My opinion is that Stalin had two sides, one was a cruel leader killing own generals and people, and the other side is a leader who serves as a mentor to the people.Russians had often wrote on there tanks "Za Stalinu, Za rodinu" that mean for Stalin and for the motherland, you can see that they put Stalin next to the motherland.The solders were ready to die for him and for the normal russians he was something like a god and a genius. Thats not a bad thing, there isn't any other leader in the history that was so respected by it's own people.Thats just my opinion of course.

    Dani
     
  14. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    When we were dealing with this entire period in high school, I made the comment then that is still relavent now.....

    The grip that the regime had virtually from Lenin's death in 1924 only tightened, and it got so tight that not even the largest national emergency that Russia had ever faced could shift it......German Army Generals, intelligence services AND Hitler all made the same error when looking at possible outcomes in the planning stages....They ALL assumed that the collective sufferings inflicted by the State on the Russian people and the Great Purge of 1937 had combined to render the Stalin regime ripe for conquest, and quick conquest at that......

    I don't think it occurred to them that the entire point behind all the persecution from the Maximum Leader was aimed at "INTERNAL ENEMIES".......internal security was an issue that was constantly monitored by the "Organs", and the fighting arm of the N.K.V.D. fielded entire divisions that were trusted with the power of life and death in the name of this very internal security.....

    The upshot of this was that the Stalin regime was anything but a "rotten structure" requiring a swift kick before the whole thing came "crashing down". Russia was, in fact, one very solid dictatorship, with nothing short of a successful 'Barbarossa' or the hand of God being able to remove the Man of Steel, Uncle Joe, Party Comrade No.1, Big Brother, from power that he held onto with a death grip............
     
  15. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    a death grip indeed my dear cristos.yours,lee.
     
  16. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    we see on t.v about zhukov sending his shock troops up the seelow heights and then his tanks and so on and so on,in a race to berlin with koniev,there seems to be an indifference to his soldiers lives,he probably had uncle joe breathing down his neck,he himself knew what was waiting for him had he failed.self preservastion is a strong thing,and if this made zhukov seemingly cruel to achieve success in battle,i for one would have done the same.yours,lee.
     
  17. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    we see on t.v....



    you'd best stop watching TV, lads...
    it's brainwashing you.
     
  18. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Well, for starters, Roosevelt and Churchill were elected and didn't kill millions of their own (or other) people.


    as for being elected:
    democracy is not appropriate to Russia and never will be,
    so this sort of remark is off the point here.

    as for ''killing millions'':
    first, provide me with links to a documents supporting your assertion -
    then we'll talk...
     
    Paul Reed likes this.
  19. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... Russia was, in fact, one very solid dictatorship...



    in fact -
    no dictatorship is possible without support from vast majority of people in said country.
     
  20. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Senior Member

    in fact -
    no dictatorship is possible without support from vast majority of people in said country.

    Only if you disarm them first. Then their support is hardly voluntary.

    tom
     

Share This Page