WW2 Sherman Tank Firefly Question ?

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by Coldstream, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Coldstream

    Coldstream Member

    Going through my Grandpas albums I found these pics and need more info. My Grandpa Robert James McCarter soldier number (2665261) was in the Coldstream Armoured (1st I now think ?) as a driver of one of the Shermans

    Note the image gallery below his tank marked T232553 (He is on far left of 2 pics with a pipe)


    Was his tank a Sherman Firefly VC or IC what is the difference and as this article below shows the same tank with a number 15 higher than his which states "This surviving Sherman Vc Firefly 17pdr British Tank is kept at the Bastogne Barracks in Belgium"

    What was their fate ? Was my Grandpas part of this same batch and also in my Grandpas photobook is something blown up where I can make out tank tracks very first pic in the spoiler what is it?

    Sherman Vc Firefly 17pdr British Tank at Bastogne Barracks Belgium
     
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  2. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    The blown up tank in the first image is a Sturmpanzer but known to the Allies as a Brummbar.
     
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  3. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Try here. telling Shermans apart | The Sherman Tank Site

    Sometimes museums are not wholly honest about the provenance of their exhibits. I know and an a fan of the Bastogne Barracks Museum - which is a branch of the Belgian Army Museum. I am not sure whether their Firefly is actually one that served in the Battle of the Bulge, or one they have acquired, and painted in the colours of a unit that served in the Bulge. Lots of historic aircraft and vehicles get paint jobs.

    I suspect the website admission that their tank has the serial number 5609 means that it wasn't actually T232568. I am not a tank expert, but there will be someone on here who will explain all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    232553 does not look like a Firefly to me.
    Can't see a muzzle brake. (quite possible I'm being dim... late & had a few :unsure: )

    But most importantly, thanks for sharing the shots, Coldstream. Great pics.
    And shots of Brummbars, wrecked or otherwise , are relatively rare.
     
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  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Looks like a standard M4A4 to me - but only going by the wide gap between the sets of bogies. Could be wrong of course. I also can't see a Muzzle Brake. Also no Wireless box on the turret rear.
     
  7. Coldstream

    Coldstream Member

    Thanks for the prompt responses and for clarifying the blown up pic to be a Brummbars (I am learning)

    Really would love to know the fate of his tank he drove all I have is the number T232553
     
  8. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Standard Sherman V (M4A4).

    Bovvy may have the info you desire, I suggest dropping them a line.

    I can roughly speculate on the photos being pre-Oct 44 (possibly even pre-Sept) owing to the lack of Tank Crew Oversuits. Unless they retained their denims for some reason...
     
  9. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    There is a slight chance something is known of its ultimate fate but this type of research is very 'needle in a haystack' stuff. You could try the Library - phone them - at Bovington Tank Museum but, when I asked them the same question about my dad's Sherman T152248, they said that the Sherman files were destroyed as part of a general clearout in the 1960s. So-called Key Cards do exist for certain other tanks hence why there could still be a chance. There also might(?) be something in the War Diary that could help?.....as I said, needle in a haystack but, if you don't try.......Good Luck!
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There's a model that has these "T-232568" decals, I saw a link for it a while ago: Sherman V, Tasca 35-016 (2009)

    [​IMG]

    With: Decal options
    1. Sherman Mk.V
      [​IMG] [​IMG] British Army
      2 Irish Guards, Guards Armoured Div.
      Normandy [​IMG] | August 1944 | SCC No. 15 Olive Drab
    2. Sherman Mk.V
      [​IMG] [​IMG] British Army
      29 Armoured Brig., 11 Armoured Div. T-145264
      Normandy [​IMG] | July 1944 | SCC No. 15 Olive Drab
    3. Sherman Mk.V
      [​IMG] [​IMG] British Army
      2 Irish Guards, Guards Armoured Div. T-232568
      [​IMG] | September 1944 | SCC No. 15 Olive Drab
    4. Sherman Mk.V
      [​IMG] [​IMG] Wojska Lądowe
      10 Armoured Cavalry Brig., 1 Armoured Div. T-149276
      [​IMG] | 1944 | SCC No. 15 Olive Drab
    5. Sherman Mk.V
      [​IMG] [​IMG] British Army
      T-232459
      Caen [​IMG] | July 1944 | SCC No. 15 Olive Drab

    The "Little John" bit is also the name of a (fairly :) ) well known SRY tank. They also had a "Maid Marion" :)
    With a discussion here: Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: Information on a specific Sherman firefly

    [​IMG]


    The SRY Robin Hood displayed here: Preserved Tanks .Com | Tank Profile

    With "A Canadian Ram tank was originally acquired by the Sherwood Rangers Association for display at Groesbeek, and 17th/21st Lancers had undertaken to restore it for display on a plinth. A Sherman, however, was felt to be more suitable, so the Bovington Tank Museum acquired a plinthed M4A1 of Royal Scots Dragoon Guards from the School of Infantry at Warminster and it was shipped to 17th/21st Lancers in about 1988. (Source: Bovington Vehicle Record). Before its time in England it had served with the Portuguese Army (source: Bevrijdingsmuseum via L. Delsing).
    In the summer of 2010 it returned to the UK for a cosmetic restoration and repaint. It was put on a low-loader on Wednesday 19 May and transported to Rotterdam, then on board a vessel bound for York, England. The work was done by apprentices of TEi at Wakefield. It returned to Groesbeek on 10 September. (Source: AFVNDB/Gelderlander/BBC).
    At the beginning of the Second World War the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (Nottinghamshire Yeomanry) was a non-mechanised cavalry unit, and it was not until the end of 1941 that it was equipped with tanks. A year later, in the Western Desert, the Regimental HQ tanks were appropriately named Robin Hood, Little John, Friar Tuck (all Grant tanks) and Maid Marion (a Crusader). The name Robin Hood was perpetuated in a Regimental HQ Sherman until 1945. (Source: B.T. White/British Tank Markings and Names).
    This Grizzly has been painted to represent the Sherman tank Robin Hood. As well as the name it has the markings “996” in white on a red rectangle that is the Sherwood Rangers insignia, and a Red Fox mask on a yellow background that indicates 8th Armoured Brigade (the unit’s parent brigade)
    ."

    Can help to indicate perhaps what goes into creating a display tank and painting them etc. Though at least during the D-Day landings etc. the SRY tank's squadron markers were blue, rather than yellow...

    Modelling

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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  11. Coldstream

    Coldstream Member


    Here is pic of him and crew or other drivers in oversuits ? https://s14.postimg.org/4qpcgudpt/Pa_in_the_past014.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  12. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

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  13. Bernhart

    Bernhart Member

    question about the firefly. Where they used in Italy? Most references I see point to just Europe?
     
  14. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    Some, but later than in NWE. I was just reading about a Canadian unit which received some in late 1944.
     
  15. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Probably last used in the 1980s.

    I found one in the back of our Q stores and thought it would be great for commanding an AFV in winter in North Germany. It was nice and warm - until it got wet. At that point I began to appreciate the technological developments in weatherproof clothing in the 40 years since 1944.....
     
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  16. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Sherman V - not Sherman VC in the pics.
     

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