Hi there. Newby question. I'm trying to find the above map reference and new to using WW2 maps. I found what I think is the right map (below) but not familiar with how to find the precise location either on the original map or google maps. Is there an online tool that I could use or another way to find the exact location. Groesbeek / Nijmegen, ( Composite map ), Holland, schaal 1 : 25.000, sheet 12 NW Groesbeek, 4102 Millingen, 4202 Cleve, 6SW (E) en 6SW (W) Nijmegen. | object | bevrijdingsmuseum | CollectieGelderland Much appreciated.
Here is another link to a (clean) Groesbeek map: Groesbeek, Holland The first three numbers refer to the horizontal scale 74 - 2; the next three to the vertical 51- 6. Your coordinate would be appr. on this spot:
Thanks. I came across a translator on google that seems to work well. Not sure if anyone here has had experience with it. The "Coordinate Translator"
It looks from the map reference that this is in Kiekberg Forest close to Mook. According to the War Diary, the RHLI were here in Dec 44. I'm doing research on my father in law who was injured in early December 44 while on patrol in this area. I've found several references to fighting in Kiekberg Forest but earlier in Sept 44. The remains of an MIA from 401st Glider Infantry Regiment involved with Operation Market Garden was discovered in 2016 in the woods. IF anyone has more info on activities in Dec 44 in the this area, I would be interested in learning more.
Maybe the report that can be downloaded from this site is of some help, though it gives the positions right up to Oct 1944: Sprekend landschap – St. Jansberg First klick this link: Then click this one to enter the report (in Dutch) but it got some maps on positions (which afaik didn't change much after Oct 1944, until the Kiekberg position was captured by the 51st Highland Division in Feb 1945 during the opening stage of Op Veritable): On the internet I also found this defensive overprint of the main German defensive positions in the area of the St.Jansberg (aka Kiekberg) (dated jan 1945): Then there is also the defensive overprint of Feb 45 which gives a more comprehensive picture of the German defensive system inside the wooded area:
Thanks Stolpi. Lots of good info here. Have you explored this area for any traces of war. It appears to have been involved at least twice with Market Garden and again with the push by the Canadians. My father in law was wounded in this area on December 3rd with the RHLI. The War Diary places them at Map Reference 742516 on the map NWGroesbeek.
I did not explore this area much, but I know there are still traces of the war to be found over there. Unfortunately, when it comes to actions fought in this area, most of the attention goes to the Market-Garden period Sept/Oct 1944. I will have a look at the War Dary of the 4th Cdn Inf Bde this evening to see if I can find more details for Nov & Dec 44. Holding the St.Jansberg & Kiekberg all revolved around control of the main Mook - Gennep road (N271) which gives easy access to Nijmegen from the SE. So all parties concerned were interested in possession of the ridgeline and you will find a mixture of American (82nd AB Div), British (43d Wessex), Canadian and German positions in the woods (trenches & individual 'fox-holes'). I know WW2talk member Bedee as explored the area more intensively and hope he will come up with some suggestions. Please note: The area is not easily accessible with a car (best is by bicycle or on foot).
Sailormannn, In early December the Canadian 2nd Division executed some operations in this area. This area has many names during the War. The Americans as Stolpi stated called It Kiekberg Woods. One of these operations in early December was executed in the area Knapheide. It was the area where the units had their staging area. From here they went to the St Jansberg, to gather intelligence. The Canadians lost Nine men and many wounded because of the heavy artillery. Was your father at the R.H.L.I. or Blackwatch (Royal Highlanders) ? In this forest, still many trenches and other traces can be found, if you need help... I'm happy to show you the area in and around this Groesbeek.
Bedee - that's a good one, I didn't think about that; worked on the assumption that R.H.L.I. = Royal Hamilton Light Infantry (4th Cdn Inf Bde).
Thanks ... Yes he was with the R.H.L.I. = Royal Hamilton Light Infantry (4th Cdn Inf Bde). He was injured by a mine on December 3rd 1944. He survived but that was the end of the war for him. The War Diary for RHLI has them at Map Reference 742516 which appears to be in the very northwest part of Kiekberg park. 51°44'57.0"N 5°54'55.0"E 51.749167, 5.915278 So far, most references to war in the park refer to the higher ground area closer to Plasmolen. From the maps posted Stolpi, it looks like those areas were occupied by the Germans in Dec/Jan. We won't have too much time to explore this area, but may have a look. From what I can see on Google, the closest you can get by car to the NW Kiekberg is Mendozaweg and Zevendalweg. It looks very rugged in parts there.
Correct: You can drive from the Mendozaweg up till the farm halfway the Zevendalweg. The rest of the Zevendalweg - the stretch southwards to Riethorst is bicycles/pedestrians only. Just drive up till the farm and explain why you visit the area. I'm sure they'll understand and allow you to park. From there it's a short distance on foot to the Apostelweg and the Kiekberg Woods ... and yes, for Dutch standards it's pretty rugged country. Geo-map of the Jans- and Kiekberg (the red line is a walking route):
On this picture you can see "the Finger" south of the mentioned location along the Rijksweg, Plasmolen. This part was since September 1944 a frontline, 505 PIR 325 Glider Infantry regiment Fought for every square meter in the period September - November From November 1944 the Canadians took over the locations from the 82nd Airbornes. In the winter of 1944 - 1945 this was territory of the strongest. This could be Canadian either German troops. But during this period the Finger is completly battered by mortar shells. These shells are still to find in this forrest. From Canadian War diaries we can't find that much, reason could be that the Canadian units stayed here for only a short period, hours or days. The Americans called this forrest "The Jungle"
Bedee - do you have anything on the Canadian positions within the Kiekberg Woods (area around what is called the "fire tower" or point 77.2 on the wartime maps). I looked through the 4th Bde War Diary but could not find any references on positions.
Is this the farm located where there is a path across from the Zevendalweg to the Apostelweg. I see on google there is a car parked there but wasn’t sure from the signs if you could drive there. I was thinking there might be a path by Mendozaweg along the farm field where there is a parking sign. It that way possible.
The Parking is even a better alternative, as you get a grandstand view of the shallow valley of Zevendal if you walk from the parking towards the wood. Its a bit further away to walk though. But once again, do not hesitate if you want to park closer to the forest, at the farm. Just tell them you're from Canada and looking for the place your father in law was in during the war, when he was wounded. I'm certain they allow you to park there, they even might offer you a cup of coffee. Most of us know our history!
BTW ... just in case you haven't seen it: a link to the War Diary of 4 Cdn Inf Bde of Dec 44: War diaries : T-11328 - Héritage Apart from patrol schemes & reports, in the appendixes, it contains not much specifics on positions taken up by the Bde's sub-units (i.e. battalions). The forward defensive lines of the RHLI companies, according to the Diary entrance for Dec 11th, were in the thick woods with enemy outposts nearby. It also tells of mines within C Company's area (German 'Schu-mines' but also American ones). Mines, especially the hidden anti-personnel Schu-mines, continued to be a nuissance (Diary entrance Dec 13th). For Schu-mines which were liberally used bythe Germans along this static frontline also see: Op Veritable: the Canadian attack on Wyler & Den Heuvel, 8 Feb 1945
About location and positions, what we know at the moment is that the Canadians went for Patrols and recces from their staging area near Knapheide. I have some WD but until now no locations, but also today I received the WD from the Black Watch, they did the operation Mickey Finn 2-6 Dec 1944. Need to read these. The fire tower was a hotspot in that area, when we have time will have a look over there.
From the few that I have been able to find, these would be approximately the positions of the battalions of the 4 Cdn Inf Bde; if I'm wrong, please shoot away: ... and yes Bedee let's have a look around in the area.
Yes ... good stuff. Lots of info also in the War Diary and attachments. My dad was in the Essex Scottish assigned to the Brigade HQ at this time and my father-in-law was in the RHLI. He would have been in Kiekberg on December 3, 1944. If we have time we will try to explore some of this or at least view the area from the Zevendalweg. We already have a full itinerary ahead of us on the day when we are there. Thanks all for your info and help.
