Wormhout Massacre/Battle Related Research Questions

I just thought I'd mention that I am following this thread but without specialist documentation, it is rather difficult to follow or to contribute to.

Post some extracts, maps and diagrams chaps !

 

Idler - Sorry I mean Andy

Just going out for the night and will post with luck Jerram's and Warwick B war diary tomorrow night.

 

Rich, don't forget the contents of the other thread!

It would be far easier doing this round a table with a map, but I'll see if I can knock something up to illustrate the latest theory as we attempt to eliminate the impossible...

 

I'm afraid I'm one of those old fashioned types who has to print things off if he wants to study them properly. I think that I'm going to have to soon !

 

Samuel, it would be good if you could post the B Coy 2 Warwicks diary as it (or Jerram) differs from the history which has B Coy platoons reversed: Gunnell's pl north of the road, Dunwells' astride the road and the other one to the south.

If that is the case, the Cheshires would have had 8 Pl with Gunnell 'well' north of the road, where they ought to have been able to fire on the Esquelbecq-La Krulle road as described.

Your father's 15 Pl in the centre should have been in or near Dunwell's locality. Dunwell's casualties could be explained by them being hit by the German attack that formed up in front of 15 Pl - did 15 Pl withdraw through Dunwell's pl?

Is it also possible that only your father's section were firing south or south west across the front, with the other section of 15 Pl deployed facing west (as suggested by the war diary)?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=35041&stc=1&d=1282682329

We think we know where 15 Pl were. 8 & 13 Pls are a bit more approximate, but we do know that 8 Pl were shooting NW-ish on tothe area of le Pave du Bergues.

If 2 Warwicks were originally deployed between Esquelbecq Road and Cassel Road, it's logical that D Coy 4 Cheshires could have been deployed to cover the northern flank of B Coy: Esquelbecq Road to Bergues Road. The extra firepower may have allowed B Coy to spread itself northwards.

 

I'm sure I read in one of the massacre files that a MG Platoon was at the Police station. marked 'Gend' on the map above near Crulle.

 

Before I throw in some more crazy ideas, I thought you might like to read the Geramn Translations of Andy's (Idlers) postings.

The first part is the main Regiment report and the second is the (weak) 5th Company attack through the South West.

I am also publishing the S-M report on the assumption that he has tranlated the German account failthfully - this one is 6th Company which togther with 8th Company delivers the main attack directly from Esquelbecq.

View attachment Deutschland unter Alles.doc

 

Sorry about previous posting - disappeared before I could do a spell check

 

Sorry - attachment added

 

Attached is the War Diary for 2nd Warks B Company

 

Assuming that the B Company War Diary has been read.

S-M quotes the effect of the removal of C Company on the Pln under Jerrram in Jerram Diaries "(Jerram was) ordered to place one of his platoons near the Wormhout-Dunkirk road to the north of the town".

And In the War Diaries - " 12 platoon - In action against Germans from Esquelbecq Road to Dunkirk road" - So instead of being the most Southerly of B Company, everything makes more sense if they are the most Northerly.

It is quite clear that 11 Pln (Dunwell) is on the right of 10 Pln (Gunnel) - so the order is from the North 12, 11, 10 (S-M arrives at this conclusion as well).

As the Diary states

" 12.30 Light tanks left road and tried to go round (to) Gunnell's Platoon on North Side of Esquelbecq road." if you leave out the "(to)" then the sentence makes sense if 10 Pln is astride the Esquelbecq Road.

Also when the first shots were heard Jerram was with Gunnell and "Gunnell was immediately ordered to go to the Esquelbecq- Wormhoudt road to investigate (by Jerram)" - S-M page 348.



I know this places B Company more Northerly than your maps. BUT before the report of Germans in the South West caused a shift to the South of the Esquelbecq Road, B Company had been North of the Road.

With the withdrawl of C Company, all positions were spread out and I think it is reasonable that 12 Pln was moved from the mostly Southerly to the North rather than shift everyone in B Company.

 

The bit that stands out at this late hour is "(Jerram was) ordered to place one of his platoons near the Wormhout-Dunkirk road to the north of the town", tying in with the possible co-location of a Warwicks pl with a 14/8 Pl Cheshires at the gendarmerie.

"before the report of Germans in the South West caused a shift to the South of the Esquelbecq Road, B Company had been North of the Road" - opposite to what the Warwicks' history says (Starting South of the Road, then moving North), but I'd be inclined add weight the diaries and the Coy Comd's account. I wasn't wrong, just poorly informed!!

Looks like load of good stuff to get our teeth into... tomorrow! Cheers, Samuel.

 

Here is a bit more circumstantial evidence.

Cookson, B company Warwick's - talking about his position on the battlefield and an Officer being put forward for a VC - that officer was Gunnell (got a MM instead). Cookson could be any Pln but most likely he was Gunnell's ie 10 Pln.


Also a reference to a MG position and a AT gun near the Gendamerie.

Both ref taken from Rommelaere.

 

Hi, This may give you a bit more info. The railway line mentioned was North of the Esquelbecq road and east to west. It doesn't exist anymore but there is a road north of Wormhout that runs along the same route, west towards Esquelbecq. The road is next to the Chateau used as a Regimental Aid Post in the Massacre thread. So I guess that add a bit of weight to A/T guns being north of the Esquelbecq road.

What is the source for Gunnell being awarded a medal? He is not listed online at the national Archive as receiving one and I can't see him in the text you posted.

Regards
Andy

 

From the end of Samuel's translation of the 3 Pz account:

In the end about 40 POWs were handed over to the friends of the SS.

Shouldn't that be 'fiends'?

Overall, though, it's quite complimentary towards the British forces.

 

What is the source for Gunnell being awarded a medal?

Andy, he was gazetted 19 Feb 1946. The citation should relate to actions at Hollain and Wormhout; wonder how easy that will be to track down in the pdfs?

RSM Turner below him was another Wormhout gong.

 

I've just looked through 75 citations and I couldn't find him.

 

Way back in my posting of 113, I referred to the section commander of my father's gun as Lance Sergeant Paddy Hamilton. Kevin W4 kindly found Hamilton's grave in posting 116 but referrred to as a Pvt Hamilton.

I admit I thought my father's memory must be faulty - how could a Pvt be an acting L/Sargent.

Think I have found the answer!

It appears that Hamilton was Lance Sargent but was reduced to Pvt for striking a soldier! By the time of Wormhoudt, they obviously needed his skills again.

 

Fascinating Samuel. It would require his service records (which are of course not available) to see exactly how things progressed after he was reduced to the ranks but even that may not be complete if returns were not up to date.

Most records are a series of 'acting unpaid', 'acting paid' etc. It's quite possible that he was 'acting unpaid' at the time and therefore for official purposes a private.

 

I am trying to confirm the position of the RAP, since I think this can lead to mother conclusions.

Is it Number 17 on the tourist map of Wormhout Streets, close to Rue de la Gare (not the scale and needs revolving anticlockwise to get true North).

I also see that Oxley describes it as a Red Building. The building I saw is a sort of pink colour and is presently the "Centre de Secours).

Also Rue de la Gare presumably was the site of the "Little Flanders Railway" and the embankment of which Cookson talked about. In fact although the Road is cut off by a builders yard today, there is a small path which leads to the Rue Verte.

The Embankment of this railway also figures in the retreat of 12 Platoon Warwicks from the battlefield - is it possible to sketch the course of this railway on Andy- Idler's map?