Wolf in sheeps clothing.

thats the whole point it wasn't a Spitfire!! Spitfires have inverted engines so the exhuast points down. This was another plane which had been converted to look like a Spitfire but it still had it's original engine!!

Get it now?

Thanks for that - I thought it was some clever innovation that meant it may have been given a different name (I was trying to be too clever).

 

thats the whole point it wasn't a Spitfire!! Spitfires have inverted engines so the exhuast points down. This was another plane which had been converted to look like a Spitfire but it still had it's original engine!!

Get it now?


Err - no I still don't get it. A Spitfire's Merlin engine is a V12, not inverted. The Daimler-Benz 600 as fitted to the Bf109 and 110 was an inverted V12, and one Spitfire captured by the Germans had a DB600 engine fitted for comparison purposes.

I would be extremely surprised if any of these hybrids still exist - I keep an eye on the Preserved Aviation Mags (i.e. I stand in WH Smiths reading them, and occassionally even buy them ) and I haven't heard of any such thing. May I respectfully suggest that your friend is very slightly muddled. Possibly a Spitfire lookalike may have been produced for a film - but why do that when there are so many of the real thing available? Perhaps ask your friend to elaborate.

By the way, the DB600 from Hess's Bf110 was is displayed in the IWM - upside down. Someone clearly didn't realise that it is an inverted Vee. Look closely at the original German lettering - it is upside down. :sign_oops:

Adrian

 

Nakajima Ki-43-I 'Oscar'

 

Two more for the pot:

 

Hi David, have you seen this.

The blurb reads: "In 1945 over 150 German aircraft were selected for evaluation by the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough or other test centres. Many of these aircraft did not receive British service serial numbers but were identified by the wordt 'Air Ministry' followed by a number. This booklet aims to record the histories of these aircraft in as complete detail as possible."

I just bought it on ebay, and intend to have it scanned when it arrives (it's only 60 odd pages). If you're interested, I'll try to post it here (if it's it not too big a file)

 

How interesting. Will look forward to seeing some of it posted here.

 

Hi David, have you seen this.

The blurb reads: "In 1945 over 150 German aircraft were selected for evaluation by the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough or other test centres. Many of these aircraft did not receive British service serial numbers but were identified by the wordt 'Air Ministry' followed by a number. This booklet aims to record the histories of these aircraft in as complete detail as possible."

I just bought it on ebay, and intend to have it scanned when it arrives (it's only 60 odd pages). If you're interested, I'll try to post it here (if it's it not too big a file)


hmmmm.

I dont think the RAF ever flew a Mistral (prob very wise). They captured plenty at the end of the war and they where so proud of them many where faked (that looks like a fake one too as it has no warhead.

Kev

 

Mitsubishi Zero

 

Mitsubishi G4M 'Betty'

 

Here is an interesting article on this subject.


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200302/ai_n9204393

 

Here is an interesting article on this subject.


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200302/ai_n9204393

Great article. I loved this bit:

“One of the Flight's main functions was to tour RAF and USAAF fields so base personnel could have the chance to view enemy aircraft at close range, for there were many unfortunate cases of aircraft being shot down by friendly fire”

Could the mean this (?)-

“1 Squadron made an inauspicious start to its service with Fighter Command, when on August 24th 1940 two of its Hurricanes mistook a flight of Bristol Blenheims for Ju-88's, shooting one down with the loss of its crew- a tragic example of what is now known as friendly fire.”

 

David, that article helped me find this one - thought you'd find it interesting (will now have to compare your posted pictures to see if any appear in this article):

Air Technical Intelligence

Air Technical Intelligence (ATI) is the process of obtaining information about design, performance, capability, etc., applicable to aircraft and weapons developed or employed by other nations. To varying degrees depending on each nation's ability for collection and analysis, ATI has been practiced by most nations engaged in armed conflict in the past.

During World War II, the most active practitioner of ATI was probably the United Kingdom. The first German aircraft flown and evaluated by the British was a Messerschmitt Bf 109E that made a forced landing in France in November 1939. The aircraft was studied and flown by the French and then given to the British in May 1940. It was promptly ferried to England and assigned to Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough where it was flown and tested extensively. In 1942 it was transferred to the US Army Air Forces and was shipped to the United States.

RAE Farnborough had been involved in aircraft development and testing since before the First World War. With the commencement of the Second World War, Farnborough became increasingly concerned with investigation of crashed and captured enemy aircraft and equipment. Other elements of the Royal Air Force (RAF) engaged in ATI were the RAF Air Fighting Development Unit (AFDU), located initially at the RAF airfields at Northolt and later at Duxford and then Wittering; and No. 1426 (Enemy Aircraft) Flight, which was formed at Duxford in 1941. These elements were responsible for operating enemy aircraft in mock combat against Allied aircraft and devising suitable Allied tactics. Also, Farnborough's Wireless and Electrical Flight (W&EF) was engaged in testing enemy radar-equipped aircraft later in the war. One of the duties of No. 1426 Flight was to demonstrate enemy aircraft at RAF and USAAF airfields to provide recognition training for aircrews.

Other Luftwaffe aircraft that came into the possession of the British and were flown and tested were a Heinkel He111 that made a forced landing in an open field in England in February 1940, a Messerschmitt Bf110 that was shot down near an RAF base in July 1940 (it was damaged but repaired using parts from another Bf110 shot down a few days earlier), a Junkers Ju88 that made a forced landing on a farm in July 1940, an Italian-made Fiat CR 42 that made a forced landing in England in November 1940, another Bf109 (an F model) that was shot down in July 1941 and belly-landed near Dover with little damage, and a Focke Wulf Fw190 that landed by mistake at an RAF airfield in South Wales in June 1942. The Fw190 was the first of that type to fall into Allied hands; and after its capture it was flown extensively in comparative trials with Allied fighters. A speed trial against three leading British fighters was held; the winner was a Spitfire.with a Griffon engine. Afterwards the RAF ordered a large number of Griffon-engined Spitfires.

Later in the war Farnborough acquired and tested three additional Fw190s, a Bf109G, three Ju88s, an Me410, a Gotha trainer, and a Heinkel He177 long range bomber. British ATI units elsewhere, in North Africa, the Middle East, Greece, and Yugoslavia, obtained and tested (and utilized in various ways) a number of German and Italian aircraft. These included Junkers Ju52s, Dornier Do17s, Do22s, Savoia Marchetti SM79s, Capronis of various types, Fiesler Fi 156 Storches, Messerschmitt Bf 108s, 109s, and 110s, and other captured aircraft.

In the post-war period Farnborough was active in evaluating many aircraft seized at abandoned German airfields. Some were flown or shipped to the UK; some never were. These included Me262 jets, Arado Ar234 jets, Me163 tailless jets., and the twin-engined Dornier Do 335 (one engine in the nose and the other in the tail). Although not a source of air technical intelligence, a number of German aircraft were used by the British Air Forces of Occupation. These were mostly small aircraft, such as Fiesler Fi 156s, Bucker Bu 181 Bestmanns, and Messerschmitt Bf 108s, used to carry passengers and light cargo.

The British also engaged in air technical intelligence using captured Japanese aircraft. ATI units were established at Calcutta in India in 1943 and at Saigon in French Indo-China in 1945. The Calcutta unit collected and examined a number of badly damaged aircraft. A few relatively complete aircraft were acquired, including examples of the Mitsubishi Ki-21 "Sally", Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar", Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah", and Kawasaki Ki-48 "Lily." After the end of the war, collection continued and flyable examples of the Nakajima Ki-44 "Tojo", the Mitsubishi J2M "Jack", the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty", and the Mitsubishi A6M "Zeke" were obtained and flown. The Saigon unit obtained a number of flyable aircraft that were on surrendered Japanese airfields in French Indo-China. Many of the aircraft collected , German as well as Japanese, ended up as museum pieces.

The air intelligence organization of the U.S. Army Air Forces was built up from a small nucleus that existed at Wright Field, Ohio, before the entry of the United States into World War II. The Wright Field unit drew on the experience of the RAF, whose organization and procedures had been studied in detail by USAAF personnel.

The first Axis aircraft to be flown at Wright Field was the Messerschmitt Bf109E acquired by the RAF in May 1940. Transferred by the RAF to the USAAF in January 1942, this aircraft arrived at Wright Field in May 1942. Later aircraft obtained by Wright Field from the British were Bf109F and Gs, an Me410, an Fw190, a Ju88, a Henschel Hs129, and a Gotha Go242 cargo glider. A Bf 109F was presented to the US by the USSR in March 1943 as a goodwill gesture after a visit to Moscow by Wendell Willkie, the US Secretary of State.

The US Navy was also engaged in ATI. In June 1942 a "Zeke" that had been taking part in an attack on the US base at Dutch Harbor in the Aleutian Islands made a forced landing in a bog, receiving relatively little damage. The aircraft was recovered by US Navy personnel and shipped to NAS North Island, California, where it was repaired.. It was first flown at North Island in September 1942. Over the next several months it made mock combat flights against US Navy F-4F and F4U aircraft and USAAF P-38, P-39, P-40, and P-51 aircraft. The pilots of the USAAF aircraft were from the Proving Ground at Eglin Field, Florida. A joint group with members from the US Navy, US Army Air Forces, Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), and Royal Navy was formed in Australia in 1942. Later, some US Navy personnel of the group were withdrawn to the United States where they formed a Technical Air Intelligence Unit (TAIU) at NAS Anacostia, near Washington, DC. The Anacostia TAIU was supported by other Navy air stations such as those at North Island, San Diego, California, and Patuxent River, Maryland.

In early 1943 the TAIU in Australia rebuilt a Mitsubishi A6M "Zeke", using parts of five different aircraft captured at Buna, New Guinea. The completed aircraft was test flown ; the flights included mock combat against a Spitfire V. It was concluded that the "Zeke" was superior to the Spitfire below 20,000 feet. In late 1943 the "Zeke" was shipped to the United States aboard the escort carrier USS "Copahee"; it went to Wright Field where it was flown and evaluated.

Other Japanese aircraft acquired by the TAIU in Australia included two "Oscars " and a Kawasaki Ki-61"Tony". The "Oscars" were test flown in Australia in March and April 1944; the "Tony" was shipped to NAS Anacostia later in 1944.

In June 1944 the US Navy personnel at the TAIU in Australia were transferred to NAS Anacostia and became the cadre for an expanded Technical Air Intelligence Center.

Collection of Japanese aircraft continued in 1943, 1944, and 1945, for analysis by the US Navy and the USAAF. TAIUs operated in Southeast Asia, the Philippines, China, and , after the end of hostilities, in Japan. Personnel of the Royal Australian Air Force participated , as they had earlier in the war. Captured Japanese airfields, particularly in the Philippines, were especially fruitful. Many of the aircraft were shipped to the United Stated by aboard escort carriers. Their destinations were usually NAS Anacostia, Wright Field , or Freeman Field , Indiana. Japanese aircraft acquired during those years included examples of the "Zeke", "Tony", "Tojo", "George", "Frank", "Jack", and "Nick" fighters; the "Kate", "Jill", "Judy", and "Betty" bombers; the "Tabby" transport, and the "Dinah" reconnaissance aircraft. Some underwent flight evaluation.

Captured German airfields also rewarded the Allies with many aircraft that were technologically advanced and of great interest to intelligence agencies. Immediately after the end of the war in Europe a group of pilots, engineers, and maintenance men was formed to retrieve German aircraft, engines, and aviation equipment for study at Wright Field and other technical intelligence centers. The manager of this effort was Colonel Harold E. Watson, who had previously served at Wright Field as well as 9th Air Force Service Command in France. The code name of the operation was Project "Lusty (from Luftwaffe Secret Technology). The pilots were known as "Watson's Whizzers."

Some of the aircraft were found in flyable condition. Others had to be reconstructed from remnants of other aircraft. Many aircraft were shipped to the United States aboard the British carrier HMS "Reaper". The aircraft that eventually found their way to the United States included examples of the Messerschmitt Me262, Arado 234, Focke Wulf Fw 190D, Focke Wulf Ta 152, Dornier Do335, Heinkel He219, Heinkel He162, Messerschmitt Me 163, Bachem Ba349 Natter, and Junkers Ju88.

During test flights many of the captured aircraft were involved in accidents. They also proved to be difficult to maintain. Some were installed in Air Force and Navy museums. The Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson AFB received many, as did the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian. Some were purchased by private museums. The final fate of most was to be scrapped.

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/airtechintel.htm

 

Some German models were produced and used by the French

 

B-17's in both Japanese and German paint

 

The B-17 in German markings is B-17F 41-24585 DL +XC, formerly 'Wolf Hound' of 360th BS/303rd Bomb Group, which was forced down Rouen on 12 December 1942. It was widely used for demonstration purposes. It's flying characteristics are well described by Hans-Werner Lerche's book "Luftwaffe Test Pilot"

 

The B-17 in German markings is B-17F 41-24585 DL +XC, formerly 'Wolf Hound' of 360th BS/303rd Bomb Group, which was forced down Rouen on 12 December 1942. It was widely used for demonstration purposes. It's flying characteristics are well described by Hans-Werner Lerche's book "Luftwaffe Test Pilot"

i hope i'm not getting to off topic... but i recently got 2 identical b-17 models to assemble, so i was thinking of finishing one as a luftwaffe and one US, but it only comes with US decals. anyone know where or how i could get some info on b-17s in the luftwaffe?

 

What do you want to know - I've scanned a couple more pictures (not the clearest though). If you want to know what the Germans thought of the plane, then I can scan a few pages from the above book.

For a summary have a look here:

Luftwaffe Annex - Warbirds Resource Group - Foreign Built Aircraft

 

What do you want to know - I've scanned a couple more pictures (not the clearest though). If you want to know what the Germans thought of the plane, then I can scan a few pages from the above book.

For a summary have a look here:

Luftwaffe Annex - Warbirds Resource Group - Foreign Built Aircraft

wow thanks... i was basically just looking for markings so i could make my b-17 model as accurate as possible. i think i'll go over to the modelling section for info on where i can obtain luftwaffe decals...

thanks!

 

one Spitfire captured by the Germans had a DB600 engine fitted for comparison purposes. Adrian

Several were converted, however Spitfire Vb EN830 a former 131 (County of Kent) Sqn aircraft being the most famous.

The project was destroyed in a US air raid in August 1944 and the remains scrapped, however I know of a few parts from the original crash landing including parts of the wooden prop that still exist.

 

removed by kyt