WO 208 file, Robert Hall, 7th Argyll's

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Stewart Coupar, Sep 30, 2022.

  1. Hi,
    I number of years ago I bought some medals and documents that belonged to a WW2 POW called Robert Hall. He had been in the 7th A&SH and captured in 1940. It turns out he was awarded an MM [which I do not have!] because he repeatedly tried to escape. I was having a dig about on the National Archives website tonight and found the following document and description-

    "WO 208/3339/1182
    Private R Hall (service number 2978458).

    Service: Army, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

    Main report not distributed. No appendices. (List 38).

    This individual's report has not survived."

    If the man's report has not survived, what is likely to be in this file, will it just be an empty envelope? Is there a reason his report might not have survived or is it possible that it is held somewhere else?
    Thanks for looking.
     
  2. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Stewart,

    Missing files at Kew is nothing new. I have pulled out a volume (they're not in envelopes) and where something should be, it wasn't.

    From the attached recommendation for his Military Medal, you'll see what this man was up to as a POW.

    If his liberation report existed, you would likely learn the names of the men he was with and those who may have assisted him.

    Regards,

    Dave
     

    Attached Files:

    CL1 likes this.
  3. Hi Dave,
    Thanks for the reply. Thanks for taking the time to attach his citation, I should have mentioned that I already have a copy of it. I have also been in contact with the Red Cross and they sent me some details of his stay in the prison camps. The Red Cross do a free search of records about 4 times a year and this is how I was able to get access to their records. There does seem to be a POW record at Kew about him, which I will probably send off for.
    I am sure I read somewhere, but cannot remember where that sometimes Returned POW interviews were sometimes used during War Crimes investigations and that can be one of the reasons that they are missing, have you heard anything like that before? In this chap's case, it would possibly make sense.
    One of the men he escaped with was an Australian called Walter Steilberg, who appears in a number of documentaries and books in Australia as he claimed to have ended up in a concentration camp after his two escape attempts with Robert Hall.
    I will keep digging. Thanks for your help and thoughts.
     
  4. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Stewart,

    I've been through the debriefs of returned RCAF POWs which will have things like "I last saw the navigator exiting the aircraft but he didn't turn up at any of the POW camps the rest of us were in" which led to investigations by various war crimes groups, ie. 1st Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit. I have the transcripts of a few trials of the guilty.

    I've never heard of liberation questionnaires being used in the manner you suggest. If that were the case, there would be a marker in the file stating "retained by department" which I have seen a few times.

    I won't post the link to Steilberg's Prisoner of War Trust Fund application as you presumably have it. I'd be curious as to where his personnel file is as it doesn't come up on a search of the NAA under any of the three service numbers associated with him. In case you're interested, Walter Henry (went by "Wal") Steilberg died aged 93 in June of 2013.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
    CL1 likes this.
  5. Hi Dave,
    I am sorry to hear that he has passed away. I did write to him a number of years ago as there was a letter written by him to Robert Hall in with the rest of the documents. It made interesting reading and Wal was happy to get a copy. He sent me a lovely letter and a photo of the castle that they escaped from together. I made contact with him after reading the book Voices from the Fortress. I have not seen Steilberg's Prisoner of War Trust Fund application, is it available to view online?
    I have read a few RCAF debriefs, they are very interesting and give some good details about the loss of aircraft. The ones I have read have been in relation to the loss of a 419 Sqdn Halifax one of my relatives was on. He was the only fatality, Most of the crew became POW's and one made a "Home Run". My relative was the Tail Gunner and the German weekly report recorded that he drowned in the Waal, but he has no known grave. It's something I need to look into again, as it is about 20 years since I first started digging around for information.
    Many thanks once again,
    Stewart
     
    papiermache likes this.
  6. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Stewart,

    The application is online. Item details (naa.gov.au) In the event the link times out, go to naa.gov.au and use "NX1164" to search.

    Have a look here for the other two numbers he was under. DVA's Nominal Rolls

    Regards,

    Dave
     
    CL1 likes this.
  7. Hi Dave,
    That was a very interesting document, thanks for sharing. Is there a reason he has 3 service numbers?
    Many thanks,
    Stewart
     
  8. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Stewart,

    No idea. This was the first time I came across three.

    You might want to email the NAA and ask. They always reply. Currently they are digitizing ALL WWII service files which will then be put online for free (currently $36.00 AUD each). They can't digitize what they don't know about. I'd give them all three numbers and ask where the files are.

    Regards,

    Dave
     
    papiermache likes this.
  9. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Ordinary liberation and Q forms were handled by M.I.9 at a hotel in Northumberland Avenue, Charing Cross. Casualty forms were handled by Cas.P/W ( Casualty - Prisoner of War ) in Curzon Street, Mayfair.

    M.I.9/19 would send Q forms to Cas.P/W asking that department to copy ( photograph process ) forms and return if they contained information on casualties.

    If there were serious allegations the originals of the various forms were usually sent to A.G.3 (V/W) at 20 Eaton Square ( to the west of Buckingham Palace ). It stands for Adjutant General 3 ( Violation of the Laws and Usages of War) ( briefly known as AG3 W/C for war crimes, but it was changed, for obvious reasons, in about May 1945.)

    Or M.I.9/19 would contact the government's set of barristers known then, as now, confusingly, as Treasury Solicitor, who had premises at Storey's Gate, St.James's Park, just off Bird Cage Walk. Or they would go to the Military Department, Judge Advocate General, in Spring Gardens, Westminster ( just to the south of Trafalgar Square ).

    The usual route was to go to A.G.3 (V/W) first and then to JAG.

    If Private Hall was a witness in a case advised upon by Treasury Solicitor in their role as British National Office for the United Nations War Crimes Commission then there would be papers in series TS 26 at the National Archives. ( The U.N.W.C.C. used basement rooms at The Royal Courts of Justice, The Strand, then at Church House, Westminster, then Lansdowne House, Berkeley Square, just to complete the tour of London premises.) This is unlikely.

    If Private Hall was a witness in a case opened by JAG then he might have a witness card in WO 353/13. These are in boxes and seen in the "Invigilation Room" at Kew, or were ( I've not been for nearly three years.) This would give a JAG reference or "FS" number. FS stands for "File Series."

    If the file is at Kew ( AG3 (V/W) and JAG later merged ) then it will be in series WO 311. The "former file reference" is usually in the Kew file description.

    About 50% of European case investigations have not made it to Kew.

    I don't know anything about escape reports handled by M.I.9 ( and/ or M.I.19) but note that the series notes for WO 208 says: "The papers of the Directorates and their sections were not always carefully and systematically filed." For the series notes just search for WO 208.

    As for Walter Steilberg, I have seen the Australian Archives file, and there is a file in WO 311 relating to the camp he mentions:

    Reference: WO 311/199
    Description:
    Theresienstadt Concentration Camp, Germany: ill-treatment of British POWs
    Date: 1945 May - 1946 June
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Former reference in its original department: MJD/JAG/FS 22/68

    The file might be worth looking at.

    In my experience looking at Far East war crimes cases and files the M.I.9/19 forms were handy pieces of paper which could contain recollections not strictly related to the reason the form was invented. The principal difficulty was in getting the witness to remember anything specific, probably due to the privations the witness had undergone.

    In some cases the witness asked to fill in a form would refer to the appointed "historian" of the survivors of the battalion or camp. Or write: " information already given."

    Some interrogators noted that left to fill a form in the witness wrote little and was tempted to take the pencil provided, not having seen one for a long time ! All Far East ex PoWs had to have a form saying they had been interrogated before they were sent further up the line on their long way home.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2022
  10. Hi Papiermache,
    Thank you for taking the time to provide such a full and in-depth answer. It has provided me with several avenues of enquiry which I was unaware of. I will need to get myself down to London sometime and have a dig about at Kew. I have not been there for about 25 years!
    Many thanks,
    Stewart
     
  11. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    His POW cards are available
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Hi horsapassenger,
    I noticed that when searching the NA website. It's a pity there is no photograph of him on their records. I am planing on ordering a copy of the cards, but am waiting until they complete a current order I have with them.
     
  13. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Good luck with your research, Stewart. You may come across references to C.R.O.W.C.A.S.S., an American funded "Central Register of War Crimes and Security Suspects" run initially in Paris under the direction of a British officer, but although A.G.3 (V/W) sent them lists of wanted suspects I do not think it will help you. Vast lists of suspects were produced by some 400 French female clerks, largely. This provoked a member of the U.N.W.C.C. into saying it was pointless listing every Axis soldier as a suspect.

    As for scale, A.G.3 (V/W) reported that about 3,700 "Q" forms concerning the European war had been forwarded by M.I.9 to them by the end of 1945 and that was the lot. There is no discrete series at Kew holding these forms.

    There were only about 360 European Minor War Crimes trials prosecuted by the British concerning minor war crimes.

    M.I.9 may have kept a register of all forms passing through their hands, both liberation and "Q" forms.

    ( In the Far East over 35,000 "Q" forms were processed, mainly by "E" group/Force 136 officers, and lists of suspects produced with brief details of crimes. Only about 10% of investigation files have made it to series WO311 and WO325 at Kew. There were 357 British Minor War Crimes trials in the Far East.)

    John
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022

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