Wittmann question?

Discussion in 'WW2 Battlefields Today' started by canuck, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I visited the Canadian cemetery at Bretteville sur Laize a few years ago and now realize that I was likely very close to the location where M. Wittmann's Tiger was knocked out on August 8th, 1944. By my estimate, using the general references I can find, the Tiger was destroyed within 400m (NNE) of the present day cemetery. Can anyone offer any more precise info?

    To my English friends, this is motivated only by curiosity. I have no desire to re-open the Ekins/Radley-Walter debate!
     
  2. militarycross

    militarycross Very Senior Member

    Tim
    Here's where Wittmann is now.
    phil
     

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  3. WotNoChad?

    WotNoChad? Senior Member

    Cor, this is a good one... does any of this help?

    [​IMG]

    On 8th August at St Aignan de Cramesnil, while he was in charge of 3 Troop, ‘A’Squadron, Lord Boardman and his troop were able to knock out three German Tiger tanks from their position in an orchard overlooking a valley. Killed in one of these Tigers, was the German tank ace Michael Wittmann with over 130 tank ‘kills’ to his credit.
    source: http://www.sharpshooters.org.uk/Newsletter/Newsletters/SYA%20Newsletter%202003.pdf

    British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away...
    Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux and were buried in an unmarked grave. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag.
    source: Achtung Panzer! - Michael Wittmann!

    Michael Wittmann and his crew had been buried nearby by a group of local civilians soon after the battle, and thanks to the research of Monsieur Jean Paul Pallud* during 1981-82, the grave was finally discovered at Gaumesnil beside the main Caen-Falaise road.
    source: panzerace.net | michael wittmann biography

    The killing shots have long been thought to have come from a Sherman Firefly of ‘3 Troop’, A Squadron, 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (commander - Sergeant Gordon; gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins), which was positioned in a wood called Delle de la Roque at approximately 12:47. on the advancing Tigers' right flank
    source: Michael Wittmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Canadian Army Survey Establishment map showing lay of the land at the time;

    [​IMG]

    The 12th SS Vol:2 By Hubert Meyer goes into great detail about Wittmann's demise as well as more modern details of local's recollections of where it may have occurred. It can be read at: The 12th SS Volume Two: The History ... - Google Book Search
    The same publisher does 2 volumes on Wittmann which probably go into even greater detail; Michael Wittman and the Waffen SS ... - Google Book Search


    * Worth a google for books he's written.
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    There is a rather good article in ATB's Ruckmarsch about this:

    There were three Tigers of the Abteilung staff which took part in the battle on August 8 were commanded by SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Whittmann, SS-Untersturmfuhrer Helmut Dollinger (Signals Officer) and SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Hans Hoflinger (Ordnance Officer).

    On the morning of August 8, the eight available Tigers of Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101 moved forward and assembled near Cintheaux, 40 kilometres north of Falaise. When at around mid-day a aircraft flew overhead several times dropping coloured flares. SS-Oberfuhrer Kurt Meyer, the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Commander, decided to launch the operation immediately. The attack started off northwards with the panzers leading followed by the panzergrenadiers. Five Tigers attacked across the fields to the right of the Falaise-Caen road and two on the left. It wa about 12.30pm when the leading Togers passed the hamlet of Gaumesnil moving northwards.

    The haste to begin the attack had been such that no proper reconnaissance had been made so that the unsuspecting Tigers presented their right flanks to the Shermans of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry whose three squadrons were deployed around Saint-Aignan. Ten minutes later, when the three leading Tigers were at a range of about 700 metres, all the tanks of No.3 Troop opened up even though their 75mm guns were not man enough to penetrate Tiger's armour. At the same time, Sergeant Gordon in command of a Firefly engaged the rear tank of the three. His gunner, Trooper Joe Eskin's, fired two shells from his high-velocity 17-pdr gun which struck home, causing it to catch fire. The second Tiger then traversed its 88mm gun to the right and replied with three shots at the Firefly which was already reversing into cover. Trooper Eskins fired one round at the second Tiger which exploded in a flash of flame. By this time the third Tiger was milling about, possibly suffering some damage from the 75mm fire from the rest of the troop. Two more shots from Eskins settled the matter and the German started to burn. Minutes later the No.3 Troop observed some 15 to 20 tanks at a range of 1100 metres due south and Trooper Eskins fired one shot at the leader and scored a hit. The panzer started to burn. More tanks were seen on the west side of the road at a range of 1600 metres. Trooper John Crittenden in another Firefly fired shots at two of them and they both brewed up. In just 30 minutes, fiver Tigers had been knocked out. The four that lie right off the road - those of Wittmann, Dollinger, Iriohn and Kisters-can be seen ringed below in this picture taken by the RAF the following day, but as there are too many vehicles on the left hand side of the road, the fifth Tiger, that of Hoflinger, cannot be posistively identified.
    [​IMG]
    One of the survivors, SS-Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo, later recalled: 'I was radio operator and machine-gunner in the panzer of SS-Untersturmfuhrer Helmut Dollinger, the signals officer of the Abteilung. SS-Oberscharfuhrer Johann Schott was the UKW-Funker (The radio link with the other panzers) and the gun-loader. The driver and the gunner were SS-Unterscharfuhrer; I have forgotten their names. The shell that hit our panzer broke through the right hand flank. It exploded into the fighting compartment and Schott was badly wounded. I was myself lightly injured in the neck. Dollinger, the driver and me all baled out and later we helped to remove Schott who was handicapped by his grave wound. I tried to stop some panzers which were withdrawing so they could take Schott away. I failed because the Tiger of SS-Untersturmfuhrer Iriohn passed by the turret hatch closed and another Tiger was hit just infront of me. Dollinger and me then put Schott on a stretcher and we carried him to the Caen-Falaise road. On our way, we passed infront of the disabled panzer of SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Wittmann; the turret has been blown apart. On the road, a Kubelwagon took Schott and drove away. I continued by foot to the first aid post. (Johann Schott died of his wounds within a few hours).

    After an investigation in 1982 fragments of one of the Tigers were discovered in the field east of the N158 the researchers were told locally that the crews were buried beside their tanks. The Volksbund Deutsche Kreigsgraberfursorge had made several attempts to find the remains of the crews during their recovery work in France between 1956 and 1963 but without success. The discovery of the fragments was passed on to the commission which organised a further search. In March 1983, human remains were uncovered here including fragments of black material , boots, and an officers belt buckle. An identity disc gave the posistive identification of SS-Unterscharfuhrer Heinrich Reimers, the driver of tank '007', and a set of false incisor teeth were matched with Wittmann's dental records.

    Together with Michael Wittmann and Heinrich Reimers, on August 8, 1944 the crew of Tiger '007' comprised SS-Unterscharfuhrer Karl Wagner, Gunner, SS-Sturmmann Rudolf Hirschel, Radio Operator and SS-Sturmmann Gunther Weber, Gun Loader. Wittmann and his crew were given a formal burial in the huge German War Cemetery in Normandy at La Cambe which contains over 21,000 dead from the Second World War.

    It was the end of a 40-year mystery.
     
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  6. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I was up this small track / road in June of last year.
    The attached photo is approximately the raea where his tank was killed.
    Was not out of the car as time was movbing on and we were some way from our accomadation.
    The small road / track cuts through the field , today nothing says what happened there.
    I have the Agte book will look through it for some additional photos.
    The style of the book does not really work for me.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  8. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Here you go mate thanks to Google Earth.
    [​IMG]

    A close up of the track leading North East from the roadside Farm/Buildings in the middle of the two N158 Signs
    [​IMG]
    Any probs give me a shout :D

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just looking at it again, I'm not as convinced now as I was at first. However its the closest match I can find along that road.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  11. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

  12. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Good links!
     
  13. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Thanks to everyone who contributed. Clearly a lot of clever folks have spent much time on the Wittmann research. I'm quite impressed by the depth of knowledge on this. So, the answer to my original question is that Wittmann's Tiger was knocked out approx. 600m from the current Canadian cemetery. Now a good excuse to go back to Normandy.

    Cheers
     
  14. SteveP

    SteveP Junior Member

    Hi, The After The Battle Article is a good reference. Wittmann's tank was the one nearest the road. I have compared the site with the present day google map and this is my best estimate (see photo)
     

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  15. AndyPants

    AndyPants Junior Member

    hey guys, this is a bit of a suprise, i was in france just over a week ago, and i actually stoped off and had a little walk through these fields. they had already been ploughed and seeded, so there was fresh growth, but if you kept your eyes open (which of course i did) you can see lots of rusted shrapnel and other bits and peices of rusty unidentifyable stuff.
     
  16. Jayce

    Jayce Junior Member

    Hi everyone, Sorry to dig up an old thread. But I'm currently writing up a short summary of the fighting around Cintheaux for the descendant of one of the Brave Canadian lads who gave their lives there.

    Thanks for the information, as a sort of repayment I can give you the coordinates for where Wittmans tank stood in the Aug 8th recce photo. I had a copy of the original Recce pic from the Keele archives a few years ago and was able to overlay the arial photo with modern ones and thanks to contemporary features still around in Gaumesnil today, was able to plot the position exactly.

    It's 49º4'0.11"N 0º17'30.22"W

    HTH, Jay
     
    von Poop likes this.
  17. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Jayce,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Nice work with the exact co-ordinates and I am sure Andy will be posting the exact spot when he sees your post.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Hi everyone, Sorry to dig up an old thread. But I'm currently writing up a short summary of the fighting around Cintheaux for the descendant of one of the Brave Canadian lads who gave their lives there.

    Thanks for the information, as a sort of repayment I can give you the coordinates for where Wittmans tank stood in the Aug 8th recce photo. I had a copy of the original Recce pic from the Keele archives a few years ago and was able to overlay the arial photo with modern ones and thanks to contemporary features still around in Gaumesnil today, was able to plot the position exactly.

    It's 49º4'0.11"N 0º17'30.22"W

    HTH, Jay
    Nice one Jayce.
    Converted to a KMZ file so one can zoom in on Google Earth:
    View attachment Wittmann's Tiger.kmz

    ~A
     
  19. idler

    idler GeneralList

    On top of multiple claims for who hit him, some cursory Googling suggests at least three different 'claims' for the discovery of his body:

    1) Jean-Paul Pallud as published in ATB's Panzers in Normandy: Then and Now - found at the roadside after establishing the position of his Tiger.

    2) M Samson the farmer as published in Meyer's 12 SS history (on GoogleBooks) - finds remains near the Tiger's location with a strong suggestion that he ploughed them up.

    3) Unverified statement that the remains were found during the construction of the new road (but isn't the new road west of the old one whereas the Tiger was knocked out to the east of the road?)

    After the Battle's mag 48 has an article on Wittmann's last battle - does anyone know which version it goes with (I'm assuming Pallud's)?
     
  20. Jayce

    Jayce Junior Member

    Idler can't comment with any certain knowledge on points one and two, (though the french Historian, Yann Joualt would probably know for certain.)

    As for point three I can clarify that the 158 was widened into a dual carriage way in the early 80s I believe, but that it was the eastern side that was widened. The Farm yard on the eastern side of Garmesnil as well as a cottage and an orchard were demolished to make room.

    The original maisonelle that the hamlet takes it's name from was partially destroyed during the fighting and completely destroyed, according to local legend, by the Canadians billeted there getting drunk and accidentally burning it down!

    Now, if you've read No Holding Back by Brian Reid you may recall that Radley-Walters states that the Sherbrooke's dug in behind a stone wall in Garmesnil and it was from behind this wall that they ambushed the stab Kompanie. This wall, well part of it, is still standing today and can be seen juting out from the small farm yard on the right hand side of the road, just north of the War Cemetary on the modern Aerial Photos that Drew and Steve P so kindly posted.

    Intruigingly, if my positioning for Wittman's tank is correct and as I say, thanks to still existent landmarks, I'm positive... Wittman was already about 200 yards north-east, beyond the Canadian positions. It's quite probable that the Tiger the Sherbrookes claimed and that Brian Reid labelled as Wittmann's was in fact Hans Hofflinger's Tank as Radley-Walters consistently describes the knocked out Tiger as being on the road. It's pretty clear from both the recce photos and Serge Varin's well known pic that 007 was east of the road when it was destroyed.

    Furthermore, the buildings and hedges since pulled down by the highway widening would have obscured the Canadian's view of Wittmann's Tiger, this opens up again the posibilty that The Northhamptonshire Yeomanry, more specifically Joe Ekin in his Firefly did the deed...

    I don't believe so. I think the credit does indeed belong to the Sherbrookes. What likely happened was that the right-hand most tank behind the wall saw 007 moving beyond the flank of the canadian position and took a pot-shot at the Tiger while the rest of the troop were busy shooting at Hofflinger!
    Thanks to the smoke, hedgerows and the obscuring farm buildings, east of the road, and that 007 was behind them, the Sherbrookes may never have even realized they knocked 007 out.

    Sorry for the long post but thought that might clear things up.

    Jay.
     
    Albowie likes this.

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