Why did you fight?

What is it we are fighting to, and have fought to, preserve. I don’t, always, understand.

Todays remembrance service and the fact that I am an rapidly becoming a socialist has brought home the fact that what has been fought for past and present is the conservation of a way of life that is, like many memorials to those who died, set in stone.
Those who did die, died to free the world of a common enemy, which to the greater extent is true.
But what did it preserve?. It preserved the positions of those in power in this country and in others. The so called titled who have owned, and nearly 100 years later still do own, vast areas of this country and the resources of the world.
Royalty. Whilst I still have some patriotism, I find it difficult to support a monarchy that sends its youngsters to university with police protection, paid for, partially or wholly, by the taxpayer. The cost of which could send several young, less privileged, people to university. Some other young royals have served in areas of conflict, but lets face it they have never been put into real danger like their “commoner” comrades.
With the recent recession and the bonus culture which has become a trait of those greedy
individuals who not only think they deserve more than anyone else, but more than everyone else to the detriment of others. Wouldn’t it be the time to reinstate national service to ensure that not only do the “common people” serve in the increasing areas of conflict , but that the more privileged members of our society serve as well.
It seems to me that with the current down turn in the economy that the armed services are, for many, the only form of employment for many school leavers. I have served and my own son is considering serving.

Why do we live in a profit before people culture. This is not what millions of people have died for in the past. They died for a better life for others, and where we have a better life it still has a tremendous amount to be desired.
I don’t want to see a truly socialist way of life, where everybody gets exactly the same no matter what their skills, but their must be a better way to spread the wealth of the world more equally

This statement is not meant as an insult to those who have laid down their lives in the fight for freedom or the war against the drugs trade, but to make those think who fought with a sense of duty? or patriotism. I wore a poppy with pride again this year, to remember those who have sacrificed there lives for freedom, and attended a remembrance service with my son.

Why did you fight ?

 

Just to pic up on the Royals not in danger bit whilst serving in the forces before I go to bed Peter.

Prince Andrew was flying helicopters in the Falklands when they 'needed em and not just feeding em'

I believe the Duke of Edin was a Captain on a ship in the Med during WW2 and Mountbatten was a Captain on HMS Kelly. I think the Duke of Kent saw action too during WW2?

I have no doubt Harry was wrapped in cotton wool whilst serving for 2 months in Afghanistan but to be fair he did go.

I'm sure there will be more Royals who have served in conflict but these are just off the top off my head and thought that would help to get the thread going

Cheers
Andy

ps. As for National Service -Argentina has/had a National Service and look what happened to them in 1982. One volunteer is worth ten conscripted men. The Army chiefs have said they don't want it either and niether do I.

 

I didnt fight in all my years of service.. and I still ended up as a war pensioner...work that one out.. suppose I policed at one stage rather than fought like my dad fought although my bro fought his battle. Cant speak for previous generations or present lads but I think its simpler and more base than the answer you would like..Iam a socialist..always was always will be ..as a youngster in uniform to be honest with you politics and the rights or wrongs didnt come into the equation with me or I suspect those around me..Simple answer..because I wanted to and I wanted to test my mettle. The answer would be different for different reasons by Ron and Sapper I suspect. I do realise now it was a good job I never got the chance. apart from short adrenalin policing actions Those that did as in Falklands tended to have had their war..and enough...then left services.. Maybe morals came into it for our ww2 vets but I suspect the later guys in service didnt give it that much thought..sorry if you were looking for a moral answer..

 

Pete mate you have to take everything the Marxists claim with a massive pinch of salt, as a life-long socialist I recognise a lot of what you're saying and it's not only typically what a Marxist might believe but it's generally nonsense.

WWII was fought against a common enemy as you say but it hardly maintained the status quo. As a result of it enormous social leaps were made for the UK, mainly in the form of the NHS and the Welfare State. It also liberated our own oppressed, women, gays, even consciencious objectors, into positions of greater equality borne of having served bravely and the rest of society not failing to notice that. Even great cases of injustice such as that of Turing led society to question why it might be so.

Similarly we've had a great knock on effect with other minorities, such as US blacks who were amazed to serve in the UK without a colour bar and even having the locals stick up for them whenever their compatriots might try to enforce one. Plus of course the Empire evolved into the Commonwealth, with millions enjoying their own free nations for the first time in living memory.

Sure there's still financial inequality, and it's a disgrace how a labour govt of several terms might have actually made that worse and seemingly quite happily so.

There's plenty of room for improvement, and anyone who wishes to be part of the push for that improvement is free to do so. I think the key is not to expect great improvements to arrive quickly, especially during times of peace. This bring us back to the oddness of war, for all it's brutality and horror it can change things much quicker than peace, but that's the nature of humanity perhaps?

 

WWII was fought against a common enemy as you say but it hardly maintained the status quo. As a result of it enormous social leaps were made for the UK, mainly in the form of the NHS and the Welfare State.


It was Churchill's Conservative part of the National Government that stood for the status quo; their ONLY contribution to any sort of social reform, despite all the promises made to Attlee during the war, was the Beveridge Education White Paper IIRC...whereas Clement Attlee and the Labour Party stood in the 1945 election on the platform of the Welfare State and NHS...while the war with Japan was still on.

May seem like a small accident of timing - but it's why we came out of WWII with the embryonic Welfare State/NHS It was thoroughly possible that we wouldn't EVER have got it....if Churchill hadn't lost that election; for the American loan that funded a large part of the reforms (although yes it caused more economic problems in the long term) would have been borrowed and spent by the time of the NEXT election!

 

It is a disservice to associate the sacrifrice of veterans with the preservion of the status quo, whatever that is interpreted to be. Whatever has transpired in the 60 plus years since the war can only be laid at the feet of the politicians and the voters who put them there. Just thank a veteran for the continuing right to choose between Labour or Conservative, in free and open elections.

 

Peterhastie

This will do for starters

Ron

 

What is it we are fighting to, and have fought to, preserve. I don’t, always, understand.

Todays remembrance service and the fact that I am an rapidly becoming a socialist has brought home the fact that what has been fought for past and present is the conservation of a way of life that is, like many memorials to those who died, set in stone.
Those who did die, died to free the world of a common enemy, which to the greater extent is true.
But what did it preserve?. .....
Why did you fight ?

It preserved your right to call your self a budding socialist as well as protecting your rights to not get punched in the mouth when you share your views.

I have served in 2 wars and participated in 3 "Operations Otherthan War". I do not regret a moment of it. If the leadership of my country had ulterior motives then that is their discussion to have, with their creator, when they are held accountable.

 

Blimey Peter I bet you didnt expect such a reaction. I do agree with Drew on the fact royal members have did and do fight...and die for their country so I disagree with that statement. As for the rest ...your questions are no different than others have asked for a long time. I answered on the personal level..others on the political moral. But you have a right to ask whst many others have asked too. Uncanny on bonuses ..on day mod suits are revealed to have received bonuses whilst angry relatives ask what about money for coal face. As to the recruitment. Its a question more relative to usa and jugs than the uk of today but no matter what anyone says..has had a ring of truth in the past especially seventies. But I would hazard a guess not so much so in uk today.

 

Peterhastie

To return to your initial query.

As someone who I see is relatively new to this forum and who has asked a very serious question I feel obliged to give a serious answer, but first of all you need to understand a little of my background.

I was born in the East End of London to Polish parents who had migrated to England at the turn of the 20th century in order to escape the pogroms that were then taking place.

My parents had eleven children, eight born in England and the whole family was and still is extremely patriotic to their adopted country.

In the thirties we saw and were apalled at the rise of Nazism in Germany and Facism in various parts of Europe including the apalling BUF in this country.

Aged sixteen when war broke out, I experienced the Blitz as a Fire Watcher and prior to 1942 was an Air Raid Warden in the Civil Defence and then, at the age of nineteen I was called up and after nearly four years overseas service was de-mobbed in 1947.

To return to your question "Why did you fight ?"

My family fought for our right to be British, our freedom to practice the religion of our choice and ultimately, for our very lives.

Ron

BBC - WW2 People's War - One family, Five Sons, All Serving in H.M.Forces

 

I was brought up in the Dorset Country side.The source of the Dorset Yeomen. We went to war to save our land from a medieval dark age that had descended on Europe. For our land would have been a labour supply for the Fatherland. Men would have been worked to death and women would have been treated shockingly

I had a great deal of trouble getting out of my reserved occupation job to join the army. I was wounded twice The last time very severely....

Then there is this:
Sent to me from a very dear late friend;

I am writing to you to give you an extract from a speech made by General Bill Slim when he was talking about his Sikh Regiments in Burma that may be use to you whenever anyone asks “why did you do it”? or what were you fighting for?. If you remember when we spoke to the students at Bournemouth University a question along these lines was asked.
However the extract is as follows:-

“If ever an army fought in a just cause we did. We coveted No man’s country;
we wished to impose no form of government on any nation. We fought for the clean,
the decent, the free things of life, for the right to live our lives in our own way,
as others could live theirs, to worship God in what faith we chose,
to be free in body and in mind and for our children to be free.”

I personally think this says it all and it may be of use to us whenever we asked the question “Why did you do it?”
Sapper
Hi Ron Mate

 

Good answer Sapper. And echoes a story on most newswires yesterday quoting a speach by Winston at mansion house after El Alamein. Which says much similar to your words.

 

Brian
and Hi to you !
If ever an army fought in a just cause we did.

We coveted No man’s country; we wished to impose no form of government on any nation.

We fought for the clean, the decent, the free things of life, for the right to live our lives in our own way, as others could live theirs, to worship God in what faith we chose, to be free in body and in mind and for our children to be free

Many thanks for the above, I had nor seen it before but it is beautifully put.
As we used to say in the forces "I'll drink to that !"

Best regards

Ron

 

At the Lord Mayor's luncheon at the
Mansion House yesterday Mr.
Churchill spoke of our victory in
Egypt. R.A.F. fighters patrolled over
London during the Premier's speech.
Mr. Churchill said: I notice, my Lord
Mayor, by your speech that you had
reached the conclusion that, the
news from the various fronts has
been somewhat better lately.
(Laughter.) In our wars the episodes
are usually adverse, but the final
result has hitherto been satisfactory.
The eddies swirl around us, but the
tide bears us forward on its broad,
resistless flood. I have never
promised anything but blood, tears.
toil, and sweat. Now, however, we
have a new experience. We have
victory [at El-Alamain] - a
remarkable and definite victory. A
bright gleam has caught the helmets
of our soldiers and warmed and
cheered all our hearts.
The Germans have received that
measure of fire and steel which they
have so often meted out to others.
The fighting between the British and
the Germans was intense and fierce
in the extreme. It was a deadly
grapple. The Germans have been
beaten by the technical apparatus on
which they counted to gain
domination of the world. Especially
is this true in the air, as of the tanks
and of the artillery.
Now this is not the end. It is not even
the beginning of the end. But it is,
perhaps, the end of the beginning.
(Loud cheers.) Henceforward Hitler's
Nazis will have to face in many
theatres that superiority in the air
which they have so often used
without mercy against others.
When I read of the coastal road
crammed with flying German
vehicles under the blasting attacks of
the R.A.F., I could not but remember
those roads of France and Flanders,
crowded not with fighting men but
with helpless refugees - women and
children - fleeing with their pitiful
barrows and household goods, upon
whom such merciless cruelty was
wreaked. I have, I trust, a humane
disposition, but I must say I could
not help feeling that what was
happening, however grievous, was
only Justice grimly reclaiming her
rights.
We have not entered this war for
profit or expansion. Let me,
however, make this clear: we mean
to hold our own. (Cheers) I have not
become the King's First Minister in
order to preside over the liquidation
of the British Empire. (Cheers.)
I am proud to be a member of that
vast commonwealth and society of
nations and communities gathered
under and around the ancient British
monarch, without which the good
cause might yet have perished from
the face of the earth.
Here we are and here we stand, a
veritable rock of salvation in this
drifting world. Sorry scource Guardian 11/11/09

 

Hope you keep well Ron....
I joined in 1942/3 but only after a struggle to get out of a reserved occupation. There was such a shortage of potential sappers that I never had one leave until I came out of hospital

 

To have a fight it takes two, the aggressor and the defender.
The aggressor fights because he wants to be the top dog.
The defender fights to survive.
And no matter what your ideals or politics, are the world of humans, animals and plants will remain the same.
There will be the Queen bee and the workers.

 

Just to pic up on the Royals not in danger bit whilst serving in the forces before I go to bed Peter.

Prince Andrew was flying helicopters in the Falklands when they 'needed em and not just feeding em'

I believe the Duke of Edin was a Captain on a ship in the Med during WW2 and Mountbatten was a Captain on HMS Kelly. I think the Duke of Kent saw action too during WW2?



Drew5233 Here's the Dukes record, and according to my wifes uncle who served with him, he was a damm good bloke to serve under.

Prince Philip left Gordonstoun in 1939 and joined the Royal Navy as a Cadet.
He completed his initial training at RNC Dartmouth, where he was awarded the King's Dirk and a prize as the best Cadet of his entry.
In 1940, he joined the battleship HMS RAMILLIES in Colombo as a Midshipman and spent the following six months in the Indian Ocean.
In January 1941 he joined the battleship HMS VALIANT in Alexandria. During the night action off Cape Matapan, he was in charge of VALIANT's searchlight control, for which he was mentioned in despatches.
Having qualified for promotion to Sub-Lieutenant, he returned home and, after taking a series of technical courses, was appointed to the destroyer HMS WALLACE based at Rosyth for convoy escort duties on the east coast.
He was promoted to Lieutenant on 16 July 1942 and in October he was appointed First Lieutenant (second in command) of WALLACE at the unusually early age of 21. In July 1943, WALLACE took part in the Allied landings on Sicily.
After further courses, he was appointed as First Lieutenant of the new Fleet Destroyer HMS WHELP, which was then being built on the Tyne.
After commissioning, WHELP first joined the 27th Destroyer Flotilla and sailed for the Indian Ocean to join the British Pacific Fleet.
WHELP was present in Tokyo Bay when the Japanese signed the surrender. After the Japanese surrender, Prince Philip served continuously onboard WHELP throughout the following months. WHELP returned home in January 1946.
After instructing in the Petty Officers' School and attending the Naval Staff College at Greenwich, he was appointed First Lieutenant of HMS CHEQUERS in 1949. CHEQUERS was Leader of the First Destroyer Flotilla in the Mediterranean Fleet.
He was promoted to Lieutenant-Commander in 1950 and then appointed in command of the Frigate HMS MAGPIE.
In 1952 he was promoted to Commander, but his naval career came to an end on the death of his father-in-law, King George VI.

 

Hi to all,
My father served in the WW2 and some of my uncles, why did they do it .... This will always be a question asked in very short sightness. The caption from RCG sums it all up -

To have a fight it takes two, the aggressor and the defender.
The aggressor fights because he wants to be the top dog.
The defender fights to survive.
And no matter what your ideals or politics, are the world of humans, animals and plants will remain the same.
There will be the Queen bee and the workers.

I am from South Africa and my daughters regualiry asked me why is there war and what is it and I always used to say to them:-

War is when one person gets greedy and wants more than what he is entiteld to. He does not want to work for it so he takes it by force. The one he wants to take it from, by force, will defend what is his. It is only right for the free world to help the opressed one to keep what is his.

War can never be justified by one answer. I think to each man it will mean something different. But for me it is greed and self fulfilment(own personal wants) such as Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Minh and so I can carry on. Unfortunatly, greed will always be there, my only wish for my children is that issues can be resolved around a table rather than picking up a club and forcing your wants onto others.

 

The truth about our boys in Afghanistan...Stuart Ramsay...The title currently on sky news page...I try to just give my own views on most matters rather than cut and paste...and as this article can be a little subjective and the language a little...shall we say armyish..Idont want to include it next to sapper and rons more elequent remarks on why they fought in what was more a morally thought provoking war..Thi story on sky page is mentioned if you wish to look..purely because I tend to relate my service views to it rather than the more rightful ww2 morals that our families and vets can be rightly proud of . Ihope that makes sense even if clumsilly done.

 

Ron/Sapper
Thank you for your great comments that have put my fathers
tearse "it was a war that had to be fought" into perspective.
Like you Sapper he was one of you and fought through the desert, Sicily, Italy &
Austria.
Leave was something he dreamed of often but never got until late 1945.

Oldman