Were German Prisoners of War killed near Arras, May 1940?

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    With respect Steve, I haven't 'ignored' anyone or anything. However, I do feel that any veteren who posts on a forum in 2011 tacitly accepts that he will be corresponding with younger persons who weren't there.

    As I said, I find it a shame that this particular thread in the 1940 section has not been allowed to stand alone with corroborated evidence about the incident in question Had this been allowed to occur then the thread would gently have slipped down the forum and would only have been examined by those who wish to know more about this particular incident.

    My Grandfather was an Infantry battalion RSM who was in France in 1940 (as a PSM) and I heard enough over the years to have a fairly good understanding about how strict a well-run battalion was in all forms of discipline but I feel that we do the cause of the Durhams involved in the Arras counter-attack little good by turning the thread into a general discussion about whether any British troops could have been capable of poor conduct under any circumstances.

    Rich


    Hello Rich,

    I trust you are well!

    Look at my Avatar. This is the arm flash of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division. One of my great granddads died in WWI, my dad's oldest brother died in WWII - at Bray Dunes on 31 May 1940 - and one of my uncles was shot in the head in 1944 (Brussels area), all serving with the 50 Div. The 6th, 8th and 9th Bns Durham Light Infantry were all 50th (Northumbrian ) Division; the best of the best. No one could be derogatory about them without me kicking off big time.

    I still say that general observations on the extremis of the matters that have been commented on by a very notable veteran of this fourm are valuable; as they give a very human context from one who knows.

    I really don't want to get into an argument with you about this because I also respect you and your views. So, if we disagree let's just leave matters where they are...

    Yours very sincerely,

    Steve.
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Wanted to do this for ages.....Thread closed.

    If anyone has anything of relevance to post on the alledged incident mentioned in the thread title send me a PM and I'll open it up again for you to post.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Taken from another thread:

    From "Myths and Legends of the Second World War", by James Hayward, Sutton Press, 2003. [It appears that] 18 Germans survived the attack by French tanks, and it was one of these survivors who shot a British soldier.

    Hayward dissects Harman's allegations, viz: "Harman's allegations concerning the massacre of an unknown - but apparently "large" - number of German prisoners by both 6 and 8 DLI were based in part on "personal interviews" with 2 former DLI men, one an officer and the other a warrant officer. Neither has ever been identified, and in February 2002 Harman told this author that he had mislaid all relevant papers and forgotten their names." Quite! No German reports of murdered prisoners were ever made, no bodies of murdered Germans were ever found, nor did Kochlein ever use this "massacre" in his defence in 1949."

    Habeas Corpus!?!
     
  5. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    There where this forum fascinates me for its large dose of knowledge and sometimes academic contributions by a core of frequent posters, I must say I am struck by the contributions of some in this thread. Particularly the eleged veteran Sapper. If you have been in the service and sniffed up battle, you perhaps more than anyone know that the thin red line is crossed in no time come battlestress and killing around you!

    History is not served by cleansing one's sheet, but by facing the facts. If I myself served in a battalion, how the hell would that certify the fact that that very unit would not have participated in atrocities? War is hell and there are no armies that fight by the book alone. Get off of your pink clouds and land on your feet people. The Germans were no rare devils in Europe. They were German devils. Like there were French, British, Dutch, Polish, Russian and Italian devils too.

    What strikes me in the discussion itself (also beyond this very forum) is the poor prove that, apparently, is presented. On Axis History I saw that the discussion was fed with figures on total losses during the Arras battle, where 127 KIA, 182 WIA and 85 MIA were mentioned, for the combined 7.Panzer Division and SS-Totenkopf. That is less than 400 in total. Should those figures be accurate, that sort of seals the fate on the 400-mark. Interesting is also that it were not the SS but the armoured division folks bearing a skull (deadhead) on their battledresses and overalls. Moreover, both the wheeled and tracked AFV crews wore black uniforms. The SS-Totenkopf men were not bearing skulls on their battle-dresses yet, when I am informed correctly.

    More importantly, the SS was not yet a notorious outfit, nor was it known by anyone in the field. As far as the average Dutchman, Frenchman, Belgian or Brit was concerned it were just German soldiers. Period. It was not like SS was deliberately killed - if they were, that is. Afterwards, the deadhead (worn by SS units) on uniforms, black uniforms and SS 'brand' became well known. That was much later in the war. Killing soldiers with dead-heads on their uniforms and - also later known - responsible for the two mass killings of British pow shortly after - was perhaps not so hard to bear after all.

    What does seem odd are the high KIA rates in comparison to the MIA. The average German KIA:MIA ratio during Case Yellow was 1:4. During the Arras affaire it apparently hits the 1:1,5. That is a significant difference. Yet I says little, in itself.

    As to the general conception of things, of 'one's own side murdering', I am afraid that in my country many people also tend to think that we were a few million God fearing saints and victimized by the anti-Christ from the East. Notwithstanding that also my country's history is brushed with atrocities in colonies and also within the confines of our own country, people tend to think that war crimes are always committed by the other side. In the end, dear friends, that leaves us with at least one side telling or believing lies ...
     
  6. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Gooseman,

    In this country - the UK - people are innocent until proven guilty. There is no evidnece that anyone in the 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry killed prisoners, so there is no need to defend them. I am aware of the statistics posted on the Axis Forum which seek to prove the 8DLI innocent, but why - where is/are the body(s). There is/are none. Hence my Habeas Corpus comment above.

    As for the originator of the allegations, for that is what they are, 'Harman' - he is discredited; again my comment at Message #124 refers.

    As for the alleged veteran 'Sapper', Brian Guy is his actual name, there is nothing alleged about his status. He is a veteran of WWII, a veteran that was crippled in your country whilst fighting the Germans, in order that you could live in freedom and post stupid messages like the one above.

    'Nil desperandum', Sapper...

    Steve.
     
  7. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Hi Mac,

    Yes I have seen your previous posters on the topic and to be frank, you are of no reference to me whatsoever. Your posters speak for itself, as does that pathetic last sentence of the one hereabove. Get a life.
     
  8. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    I thought Drew closed this thread

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I thought Drew closed this thread

    Cheers
    Paul

    I opened it up again after the last 'who ha' had died down and I had found something else to add to the subject. I don't want to have to close it again so...


    Can I suggest that members take personal comments to each other to the VM or PM (messages) section of the forum.

    We are a friendly bunch in the 1940 section and don't do hostilities towards each other in here-which is why I like moderating in here, its an easy job.

    Just comments about 1940 please or I will lock this thread again.
     
    Owen likes this.
  10. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Just comments about 1940 please.

    Appreciated. I am here for no other reason.
     
  11. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Find the 'massacre' suggestion ludicrous and find the topic title a disservice to the good men of the DLI to be honest.
    I think we should close the thread and cut the topic.
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Find the 'massacre' suggestion ludicrous and find the topic title offensive to the good men of the DLI to be honest.
    I think we should close the thread and cut the topic.

    How can it be offensive to the DLI when it was their Veterans who raised the issue in the book Andy was reading ?


    Some DLI veterans were interviewed by author Nicholas Harman and they told him that their unit, "Did murder an unknown number of Germans who had surrendered, and were legitimate prisoners of war".
     
  13. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Crossed posts here Owen as changed words to 'disservice'.
     
  14. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    How can it be offensive to the DLI when it was their Veterans who raised the issue in the book Andy was reading ?


    How can it be offensive to the DLI when it was (allegedly)their Veterans who raised the issue in the book Andy was reading ?

    Remember as Steve pointed out no names could be recalled by the author and the Durham regiment themselves could find no evidence I believe:unsure:

    Best

    Clifford
     
  15. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Find the 'massacre' suggestion ludicrous and find the topic title a disservice to the good men of the DLI to be honest.
    I think we should close the thread and cut the topic.

    Remember as Steve pointed out no names could be recalled by the author and the Durham regiment themselves could find no evidence I believe:unsure:

    Best

    Clifford

    Agreed on both counts! Not only that, the Germans themselves reported no such losses - not one soldier; without evidence to the contrary it's just sensationalist tosh from Harman...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Gentlemen, without the thread title - and its rather obvious question mark inviting comment/input/opinion/sources - you wouldn't have had this opportunity to counter any such allegations.

    Is that not in itself a service ? I see nothing wrong with the title nor with bringing up the topic. Is it not better that something was explored / laid to rest / whatever - and done so rather more publicly and accessibly than printed text, in a book, on a few shelves?
     
  17. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Gentlemen, without the thread title - and its rather obvious question mark inviting comment/input/opinion/sources - you wouldn't have had this opportunity to counter any such allegations.

    Is that not in itself a service ? I see nothing wrong with the title nor with bringing up the topic. Is it not better that something was explored / laid to rest / whatever - and done so rather more publicly and accessibly than printed text, in a book, on a few shelves?

    Excellent observation!

    Btw. What a sad bunch here. Neg rep because you don't go along with the mainstream. It convinces me even more that you just cover up what you find necessary to cover up. Like the Brits have by far the largest stock of 'sealed archives'. Yeah, the truth hurts.
     
  18. Jen'sHusband

    Jen'sHusband Punchbag

    Excellent observation!

    Btw. What a sad bunch here. Neg rep because you don't go along with the mainstream. It convinces me even more that you just cover up what you find necessary to cover up. Like the Brits have by far the largest stock of 'sealed archives'. Yeah, the truth hurts.


    Message removed.
     
  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Until there is something to say that is relevant to the topic let's please take a break from this thread. Some of us happen to be looking in cos we are interested in events in 1940.

    I have 3 children: if I wanted to listen to bickering, I wouldn't have to log on here.
     
    Heimbrent likes this.
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I go to Kew for a day and.....

    Thanks Di and trust me Gooseman-I suspect no one on here is looking harder than me for Allied War Crimes !

    Now once again back to the subject matter or don't post-simples :)
     

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