Was Grossdeutschland division as good as the..........

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Desert storm vet, Jul 1, 2009.

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  1. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    Moderator please close my account. Thanks.
     
  2. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    I don't plan on coming here any more so you can shove it.

    Bye
     
  3. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    Bye

    Blows you a kiss.
     
  4. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    here is another clue.

    If you don't want to be here quit comming back. The object of leaving is to not be here. Your presence contradicts your intention.

    Good day
     
  5. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    here is another clue.

    If you don't want to be here quit comming back. The object of leaving is to not be here. Your presence contradicts your intention.

    Good day

    I'm going to leave when the moderator confirms he will close my account little Bwadley.
     
  6. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    I'm going to leave when the moderator confirms he will close my account little Bwadley.

    Isn't that special............denegrading others to build up your self esteem, priceless.

    Once again,

    Good day
     
  7. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    Isn't that special............denegrading others to build up your self esteem, priceless.

    Once again,

    Good day

    I did not degrade anyone. You got rude and I returned fire.
     
  8. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    I did not degrade anyone. You got rude and I returned fire.

    oh, my mistake..........it's all my fault

    I'm going to leave when the moderator confirms he will close my account little Bwadley.

    So I guess then you have managed to channel the spirit of my dead grandmother into the forum and transformed this thread into a OUIGA board?

    For the last time,

    Good Day
     
  9. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    oh, my mistake..........it's all my fault



    So I guess then you have managed to channel the spirit of my dead grandmother into the forum and transformed this thread into a OUIGA board?

    For the last time,

    Good Day


    First this is a WW2 forum. Despite losing the war the SS were very good soldiers. Germany probably had the best troops by far coming out of the gate. Their allies were weak and they bit off more than they could chew fighting on too many fronts and not having their industrial resources mobilized for war until their fate was already decided. It is not a slap in the face to the deceased allied soldiers saying the enemy had good soldiers. Nobody here was making them out to me more than what they were. I had family die fighting them. I did not realize I got rude with a moderator. I thought he was just another poster. You took a shot at me so naturally I fired back. That is my nature.
     
  10. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    First this is a WW2 forum. Despite losing the war the SS were very good soldiers. Germany probably had the best troops by far coming out of the gate. Their allies were weak and they bit off more than they could chew fighting on too many fronts and not having their industrial resources mobilized for war until their fate was already decided. It is not a slap in the face to the deceased allied soldiers saying the enemy had good soldiers. Nobody here was making them out to me more than what they were. I had family die fighting them. I did not realize I got rude with a moderator. I thought he was just another poster. You took a shot at me so naturally I fired back. That is my nature.

    To put the SS units on a pedestal and praise their accomplishments, out of context, does insult the soldiers that fought and died to end facism.

    To blame the German's losing WW2 on ineffective and poorly trained troops in the last years of the war is also an insult to German Soldiers. The German leadership lost the war and the leadership, especially of the SS units, were the most ardent supporters of Hitler and the Third Reich.

    The SS units, wether they committed war crimes or not, are fruits of a poisoned tree. IF one is bad they are all bad. They deserve no praise.
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Right lads enough is enough. There is scope for discussion on this thread and I'm keeping it open to see if it can be brought back but anymore personal insults, and I dont care in what context they are posted and it gets closed.

    Desert Storm, I'm wasnt giving out to you nor was I trying to insult you and if you got that impression I'm sorry. I was trying to "flesh out" the debate and encourage you to expand upon your statements. I didnt take your posts as rude by the way.

    FormerJug, there is nothing wrong in the discussion of the SS as an "elite" group if it is in the context of fighting ability and not about the ideals or excusing any atrocities by the organisation. By discussing whether they were better fighters than Grossdeutschland may be a moot point but it is not an insult to the soldiers that fought and died for freedom. Whilst the regime was the ultimate in evil discussing the fighting ability of various German Units does not mean that you are a supporter or apologists for the Third Reich.

    Onnce again lads any more arguing as opposed to debating and its getting locked and the key thrown away.
     
    Slipdigit likes this.
  12. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    ...and obviously that's the problem with you. You just post some rather random stuff without backing up anything of what you say. Please keep your opinions to yourself unless you have something to base it on and tell us what that is :)

    I don't see everyone making 5 paragraph posts? I answered his question, which is on topic.
     
  13. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    The SS got the best men. But they suffered heavy losses and after 43 the playing field leveled out because most of Germany's best had been killed in combat and were replaced with lesser trained men.
    Actually that's not how it worked. Before 1935 the SS relied on volunteers. They were not difficult to find because the Versailles treaty limited the Reichswehr to a max of 100,000 men and the SS became an alternative for thousands of young men who pursued a military career. This means the Reichswehr got the "best stock". In 1935 the Wehrmacht was created and with it came conscription. All the way upto 1944 the regular army got all the conscripts, including the best men. The SS had to rely on a set number of volunteers. This is why from 1940 on the SS relied heavily on foreign volunteers for its expansion. High losses were not exclusive for the SS. All units, SS and Wehrmacht, suffered from huge losses and they all had to be replaced with lesser trained men. Simply because there were less men available, less time to train them and in the end to little ammo and fuel to use to teach them what they needed to know.
     
  14. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    Actually that's not how it worked. Before 1935 the SS relied on volunteers. They were not difficult to find because the Versailles treaty limited the Reichswehr to a max of 100,000 men and the SS became an alternative for thousands of young men who pursued a military career. This means the Reichswehr got the "best stock". In 1935 the Wehrmacht was created and with it came conscription. All the way upto 1944 the regular army got all the conscripts, including the best men. The SS had to rely on a set number of volunteers. This is why from 1940 on the SS relied heavily on foreign volunteers for its expansion.

    You had to almost be perfect at the beginning to be in the SS. You had to be tall and have that certain look. You could not even have a tooth filled. Hitler made sure they got the best equipment once he decided to make a professional army out of them. You had to apply to be in the SS and the requirements were of a high standard until the ranks started to get decimated in combat.
     
  15. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    You had to almost be perfect at the beginning to be in the SS. You had to be tall and have that certain look. You could not even have a tooth filled. Hitler made sure they got the best equipment once he decided to make a professional army out of them. You had to apply to be in the SS and the requirements were of a high standard until the ranks started to get decimated in combat.

    I think that these rather superficial rules were applicable only to the 1.SS division and SS-VT pre-war and during the pre-Barbarossa stage of the war. These non-military requirements make sense, as the 1.SS was supposed to be representative of Hitler's guard.
     
  16. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    You had to almost be perfect at the beginning to be in the SS. You had to be tall and have that certain look. You could not even have a tooth filled.
    Yup, before 1935 and they had to volunteer. The standards already dropped from 1934 on and if one looks at the rabble that was allowed into the TotenkopfverbÀnde to guard the camps it becomes perfectly clear that the myth of filled teeth and looks only applied to the earliest volunteers for the Leibstandarte. Besides that, racial and political requirements do not make a good combat force.
    Hitler made sure they got the best equipment once he decided to make a professional army out of them.
    A popular myth but also far from the truth. Contrary to popular belief, the Waffen-SS did not receive the best equipment, and in fact many units were equipped with outdated or captured weapons, vehicles and tanks, with the majority of the best equipment going to the Heer's elite divisions. The only exceptions being the Leibstandarte and later Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking. During the war the SS received its weapons and equipment through the Heeres Waffenamt. When it comes to the myth about equipment: name one important weapon or combatvehicle that was only (or even first) delivered to the SS.
    You had to apply to be in the SS and the requirements were of a high standard until the ranks started to get decimated in combat.
    Also not quite. The requirements for the elite Heeres divisions were equally high and training not only just as hard but actually better. That's why the SS learned the hard way in Poland and the western campaign that their doctrines did not work. They quickly dropped them and adopted those from the Wehrmacht instead. The SS never had a monopoly on "best stock".
     
  17. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    What were their special doctrines? I thought that their poor performance in 1939-1940 was mainly due to their cadre of much less senior officers and their military education institutions weren't as stringent and selective as the Army's.
     
  18. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    I still think the 2 panzer corps was very good which was composed of the first three SS divisions.
     
  19. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    I agree, they were a well equipped elite force at Kursk but with mentioned Order of Battle the corps was formed prior to Kursk and disbanded afterwards (II. SS Panzerkorps was reorganized with Hohenstauffen and Frundsberg). Kursk was also the battle that got them a bloody nose, the crippling blow which these SS divisions never recovered from. The Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf were at their best as SS Panzerkorps when they fought the battles for Charkow in February and March 1943.

    And even at that time of Charkow and Kursk the Heer had the units which received the newest equipment.
     
  20. Desert storm vet

    Desert storm vet Discharged

    I agree, they were a well equipped elite force at Kursk but with mentioned Order of Battle the corps was formed prior to Kursk and disbanded afterwards (II. SS Panzerkorps was reorganized with Hohenstauffen and Frundsberg). Kursk was also the battle that got them a bloody nose, the crippling blow which these SS divisions never recovered from. And even at that time the Heer had the units which received the newest equipment.

    You seem well informed I started another thread that you might be able to help with.
     

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