Wartime locomotive shortage?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Chris C, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hm, hope this is the right place - should it be in Home Front instead?

    I was interested to see this offhand comment in an article about British tank production by David Willey in Tracklink. Can anyone confirm?

    (Regarding a believed surplus of Shermans in 1943)
    "Harriman suggested Britain take more Shermans and stop some of its own tank production." (I knew about this.) "This - he suggested - would allow some of the British tank manufacturers to swap back to railway locomotive production. There was a shortage of locomotives in Britain and larger numbers would be needed in the build up to D-Day and subsequent operations. Transporting locomotives from the US took large amounts of shipping space and they were much harder to load and unload than a Sherman tank."

    Was this due to attrition from German bombing raids, or simply wearing out, or was there an expansion of need for transport of material from A to B, was not matched with an increased number of locomotives?
     
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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Chris
    Interesting bit here about building locos in WW2

    Train numbers
    The official rail usage statistics make interesting reading compared to today as there were 1,158,318,000 passenger journeys made in 1939.These were made on trains that covered 284,946,000 miles while freight trains moved 254,496,000 tons running 133,440,000 miles. For the record, 90,556,000 parcels were also moved by rail in 1939 and there were 42,575 carriages with 2,513,000 seats in service then.

    At the start of 1940, Britain’s railways used 19,577 steam locomotives, 2002 railmotor vehicles, 130 steamships and 11,163 horses! The year before, the 76 railway owned docks, wharves and harbours exported 49,342,000 tons of goods while imports totalled 15,886,000 tons. These goods were carried in many of the 646,479 wagons and 18,224 parcel and mail vans and horse trucks. Freight services used 3,946 mechanical horses!

    Why do these statistics make interesting reading? Because 1940 started off with 50,555 miles of track on a route mileage of 19,131, about double that of today. There were 6,698 passenger stations, 6,908 goods stations and 581,401 staff were employed by the rail industry and many of these lived in the 49,774 railway owned houses. They earned £105 million in 1939 in rent payments.

    Railways immersed in wartime operations 75 years ago | Rail.co.uk




    World War 2 and a really useful class of steam engine | Office of Rail and Road


    Railway Works such as Eastleigh, Wolverton, Doncaster, Derby and Swindon were used to make armaments, military vehicles and even warplanes. The railways themselves were in essence a nationalised business run by a Government wartime Railway Executive that paid the ‘Big Four’ a facility fee to operate trains and maintain the network. They retained their individual identities though until 1948 when Nationalisation came as a direct result of the war.

    Seventy Years Ago - Railways at War | Rail.co.uk
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  3. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Wasn't Britain also making locomotives for shipping to France after D-Day to support the Allied forces?

    I have a dim memory that there was a class of small loco that could be carried on a special trailer towed by a Churchill tank for immediate deployment in France.
     
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  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I would not be surprised!

    This section reminded me of Valentine tank production being let go - it makes letting the railway companies return to producing locomotives seem of much more value than it did to me before.
     
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  5. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

  6. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    I'm always struck by a comment made by Charles Bartlett of Vauxhall Motors in a letter to Duncan Sandys of 8th December 1943:

    Bartlett.jpg

    Basically, a lot of people were jockeying for position in the post-war world, even before 1944!
     
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  7. Richelieu

    Richelieu Well-Known Member

    British War Economy by W.K. Hancock covers this subject in some detail.

    See also the Chiefs of Staff minutes and memoranda re SHAEF demands, and there may also be something of interest in WO 229.

    N.B. CAB 80 and WO 229 are downloadable at the piece rather than item level.
     
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  8. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much!
     
  9. Tolbooth

    Tolbooth Patron Patron

    The Southern Railway ran a mostly passenger service pre-war and certainly found itself facing a severe shortage of freight engines when it suddenly found it self on the front line in 1939. Oliver Bullied, CME for the SR, came up with a design for a 0-6-0 frieght engine that stressed functionality and ease of use and produced what is arguably the ugliest loco to run on British railways - the Q1 class
    [​IMG]

    And of course there was the famous 1943 War Department Austerity class 2-8-0 heavy freight engines of which over 900 were built.

    The USA Transportation Corps also shipped over a number of 0-6-0T engines during the war - many went to Europe eventually but many were left in storage and were eventually obtained by the SR in 1946, mostly for dock work
    [​IMG]

    I would have thought that shipping US locos over here would have ran into problems with the narrower British loading gauge - something often blamed for the small turret rings, and hence smaller armament, of British designed tanks
     
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  10. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Engines were also needed elsewhere. In Oct/Nov 41 MS Abbekerk loaded 9 large steam locomotives (Stanier 8Fs) at Gourock. Destined for Persia/Syria the plans went awry in Durban when the ship was diverted to Singapore. 4 engines were offloaded at Durban but I have no idea what happened to the other 5.
    Extracts from ms Abbekerk
    The cargo existed of 5-6000 tons of bombs, 5 large steam locomotives with tenders at the bottom of the holds and another 4 as deck load . Anti aircraft artillery, anti tank cannons, planes and munition for all of them. Even landmines and torpedo’s. The ship was loaded to the max up till 10 – 11.000 tons.
    3rd Officer Jacob Visser

    [​IMG]

    All the cargo on top of the locomotives had to be unloaded, the locomotives lifted out, the rest of the cargo put back and we could be on our way to Singapore. And as swiftly as possible because over there they really needed our war materials.
    As the chimney and cab of the first locomotive became visible orders arrived to leave the next morning. The unloading stopped immediately and hastily we put everything from the shore back in the holds. Eventually there was nobody who could tell what was where and how much of it. In any case, the whole ship was reloaded and at least we got rid of the locomotives on deck.
    Third mate Jacob Visser

    Tim
     
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  11. hutt

    hutt Member

    I would have thought that shipping US locos over here would have ran into problems with the narrower British loading gauge

    The two locomotive types, the 0-6-0 tanks and the larger 2-8-0 USATC S160 locomotives were built to the British loading gauge limits specifically in anticipation that they would be unshipped, moved and stored in the UK as well as the possibility of assisting the UK rail companies in the build up to D Day. If they fitted our infrastructure, they would certainly fit the European which is larger but still nowhere as big as the USA.

    I have a book with a photo of them at Ebbw Junction shed and GWR locos can be seen amongst them. They were used quite extensively over here on freight and were not without incident due to incorporating some peculiarly American practices such as a single water gauge and there were a number of incidents of catastrophic firebox distortion or even failure due to low water.

    Unlike the 0-6-0 tanks, none remained here nor were any repatriated so that they were, until the preservation era an oddity here in the UK as a result if their distinctive American look and construction, ie using bar (or cast steel) rather than plate frames.

    Since the preservation era, a number have been bought back from Poland and Turkey (I think) and I have seen them running on the North Norfolk Railway, the Keighley and Worth Valley and the Churnet Valley in Staffordshire where a few years ago I had the privilege of driving one for a couple of hours. It went like a rocket!

    See also Wikkipedia USATC S160 Class - Wikipedia
     
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  12. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    In all 228 Stanier 8Fs were shipped overseas in 1941/2 of which 23 were lost at sea. 155 of these were sent to Persia - to supply Russia from the south, 145 arrived. I have listed them, but the file is a bit of a mess - if the list is of interest I will try to knock it into shape. The following describes one shipment:

    On the 1st September (1941) the ship (m.v. La Pampa) was allocated to the Liner Division for a voyage from the USA to the UK. This was cancelled, as was a subsequent allocation to the Liner Division on the 9th for the carriage of locomotives to the Persian Gulf, the vessel arrived at Cardiff on the 12th and began loading. On the 1st October she was re-allocated to S.T.A. 6 for Military Transport service, again to carry locomotives. She sailed that same day having already loaded. This voyage coincides with the first shipment of Stanier 8F freight locomotives to the Persian Gulf; in all 22 were shipped from the UK that month, but only 18 arrived as two ships carrying engines on deck were lost.

    La Pampa is listed as carrying ‘important military stores.’ With her 60' hatches she could have loaded eighteen locomotives, six each in the lower holds, tween decks and on deck. I have not been able to check the number she carried, but the military would probably not have risked many locomotives in one vessel. Over 700 allied merchant vessels and their cargoes had been lost so far that year. Probably she carried six, including LMS No. 8233.

    From the website of The Stanier 8F Locomotive Society Limited:

    "By December 1941, LMS No. 8233 had been requisitioned by the WD. and sent to Persia. Here, as No. 41.109 of the Iranian State Railways she participated in the epic attempt to supply Russia 'by the back door'. Double-headed, 700 ton trains battled up 1 in 65 gradients for miles on end, through many tunnels in temperatures of over 90 degrees Fahrenheit to bring thousands of tons of vital supplies to the hard pressed Russians. In 1944, derailed after colliding with a camel, she was known as The Camel. In the same year No. 41.109 was converted to burn oil, and in 1946 she was transferred overland to the Suez Canal Zone."

    The story did not end there, for the engine was one of a few that were returned to the UK, but in a sorry state. Restored to her former glory she is now the property of the Stanier 8F Locomotive Society. So though the La Pampa has long gone it is possible that a part of one of her cargoes still exists. There are many good photographs of this engine online.
     
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  13. hutt

    hutt Member

    On a trip to the USA some years ago I came back with a fascinating book, America's Fighting Railroads.

    It is on page 124 of that book that there is a photo of Ebbw Junction with the S160 2-8-0s in the yard. The caption refers to the 756th Railway Shop Branch. There is a unit history available on Scribd at the link below. It is a fascinating account of the units formation in the US, passage to England and the work they were involved in here in the UK before heading to the South of France. 112 pages in total and a fascinating read.

    This brief section below refers to the shipping of locos to the continent in October 44. Translation if needed .....Flats are flat wagons, gondolas are large open trucks with sides walls, cisterns are tank wagons and cabooses are brake or guards vans.



    756.JPG

    https://www.scribd.com/document/260800593/756-th-Railway-Shop-Battalion-Unit-History
     
  14. Wapen

    Wapen Well-Known Member

    My train knowledge is sub-zero but 1 Cdn Army claimed that getting Op Veritable's mass of material into Nijmegen area involved 446 freight trains transporting ‘a tonnage equal to 89,200 three-ton army lorry loads which, if placed end to tail, would stretch from London to Edinburgh’ (530km). As the RAF (allegedly) shot every train it saw, I'm guessing a lot of these can in through Antwerp.
     

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