War Grave Belgium: Joseph FAIL, 2 LINCOLNSHIRE, DENDERWINDEKE COMMUNAL CEMETERY

Hi,

I've finally registered for this site after Phil got in touch with me on ancestry. I'm Joseph's half-sister Elizabeth Potts' grand-daughter, so I think that would make me his half great-neice. As far as I know he didn't have any children. His half-siblings that are still alive are Thomas Potts, Greta and my grandmother Elizabeth. My grandmother knows nothing about Joseph other than she had a half brother who never lived with her family and that he died in the war. She was raised by her sisters because Lizzie (her and Joseph's mum) died in 1933, and she knows very little about her own family. She has no photographs of her father, none of her or her siblings and only a couple of Lizzie.

I'm in Australia (which is why I may be a bit slow replying to emails), but I have asked my mum to go and visit Greta as they live close to each other. Greta is probably the best hope of finding out anything about Joseph, as she quite a bit older than my grandmother, who was only 9 when he died.

I will keep in touch and let you know what I can find out from Greta. I hope she might have some photographs, although she may not as the family were very poor.

It has been very touching to see the photograph of Joseph's grave. Even though I didn't know anything about him it feels like I now have a personal connection to a real soldier. Sadly my grandparents don't like to remember the war and talk about it, so I have never found out anything from them. I've always been interested in history, but it has felt distant: reading all these posts has brought it much more to life.

Louise

 

Hi Louise & welcome.

Hopefully with Peter's interest about a solitary grave in his area of Belgium, the war diaries and the headstone photo, some of the gaps have been filled in.

Look forward to hearing more from you.

Regards - Rob

 

Welcome to the forum Louise. It's interesting to learn a little more about the name on the headstone.

If you're investigating your family history then it's perhaps worth considering applying for Joseph's Service Record. Unfortunately, the UK authorities do make a charge for this. Any of his half-siblings as next of kin could complete the necessary forms. It will also include details of his pre-war service if any and may include other snippets of family information.

Rich

 

Hello Louise,

I will sent you a PM with our details of contact,

thanks for the reply, with much respect we will use your info.

best regards

Peter

 

The first contact are made with Louise, I want to thank everyone who made it possible to track relatives.

With help from Louise, we will further reconstruct the story pré war.

For our search what happened on 16/17 may 1940, we are making a general descrition of all te movement of englisch troops around Ninove, with hope to find the missing link with our Lincolnshire pte.

We have info that 3de bn Grenadier Guards, 2de bn Coldstream Guards en 2de bn Hampshire Reg have been around Ninove during the may 1940 campaign.

2nd Linconshire was further up on the 17th - Welle and Denderhoutem. There was a story of a badly wounded soldier that was carried out of Louvain the 16th, but we believe it was another soldier according to match two different diary's.

When the 2nd Lincolns went to Louvain before the 16th, we also havent got a known route description yet.

For the city archives : hopefully this week it's D day - we look forward to the visit, and we will inform you if whe can find anything. B)

For this sundag, and it's a sunny one +32°C... A preventive job with our divers and boat of the fire dept this afternoon at 2.00PM, there is a 'big jump' on a bridge at the river Dendre, this is an international sign for cleaner wather, our job - make sure that everyone get out ...

I'll post a photo that my mate Eric has found, it's a tempory bridge placed by the Germans on the 18 of may 1940 in Ninove after all the bridges where blown in the retreat.
Note : the new pedestrian bridge where the jump is this afternoon, is at the end of the house row of the photo.

 

Hello

Some new info has been delivered this week.

We have the official death certificate, as made on the 17th may 1940 at 11.00AM. by the Denderwindeke authorities.

There is written that a chaplain of the englisch troops, has declaired that the body was found at 10.00AM @ Neuringen 17th, that it was Joseph Fail age around 31, no other information could be given by the withdrawel that was going on.

So not much info on that, but :
- we know that he was found dead 10AM the 17th
- the place was Neuringen, Neuringen is a road quite long between Denderwindeke and Pollare, The cementry where Joseph is burried is at Neuringen.

We believe that when Joseph got hit in Louvain the 16th as documented, he was no longer with his regiment. That should be the reason why the field books of his regiment don't mention anything about Denderwindeke or nearby.

Now the other new tip :
The 1st bn of Duke of Wellington, part of 3th infantry brigade, was on the 17th south of Gooik. They form the rearguard. They collect the men who lost their unit, en even a field ambulance should have been taken care of.
There route taken is interesting. From Gooik - trough Denderwindeke - passed dender bridge Zandbergen and new stop at Idegem. That means they could have passed Denderwindeke. The doctor of the bn was Kpt D. Thompson.

Could there be a match with the 1st bn Duke of Wellington, 17 may 1940 withdrawel from Gooik to Idegem passing Denderwindeke?

 

Enclosed a link with a map where we set some points dating 16/17may 1940 - movement of 2nd lincolnshire regiment.

With the coördinates that Rob (Ramacal) has provided, we placed them on a map, like Rob did for the one containing shelling around Louvain the 16th.
With some patience and search @ the internet we found the translator for the codes to place in UMT.

2nd lincolns may 1940 - Google Maps

When we have more positions, we will complete with a withdrawel line 2nd lincolns, witch we already know, leads not to Denderwindeke...

When we have some details about the route taken by 1st bn Duke of Wellington 16/17may, we will make a second line.

Has anyone an idea how to get some data from 1st bn Duke of Wellington providing info over these days?

Best regards

Peter

 

Personal recollection of Jack Millar (‘A’ Company)

During the retreat I remember Richard Steele, who won the MM in Palestine, being shot by a sniper. Joey Fail, who was very close, climbed a tree and eventually got the sniper. Unfortunately the Germans got him with a mortar round, mortally wounding him. He was pushed in a wheelbarrow towards Brussels but died a short time later.

 

Well done Peter, I can't believe the information that you've been able to locate. Where did you find the account from Jack Millar ? Is he still alive ?

It would seem that Steele was killed on 13th May and he is buried at Leuven. There are only three Lincolns in the cemetery.

CWGC :: Casualty Details

There is no mention of a Military Medal on the CWGC site. That may be one for Drew to look at.

It certainly looks from the account as if Joseph Fail was still with the Lincolns when he died which perhaps indicates that during the massive withdrawal, not all units followed one line on a map. Congestion could have meant that they were spread across quite a broad swathe of country.

 

The info is available at The Second Battalion of The Lincolnshire Regiment
Then go to Dunkirk and Personall recollections - jack millar.

We have emailed the webmaster for more info and help, when an answer is provided i will post it here.

The Jack Millar link is found by netsearching of my mate Eric, well done!



Well done Peter, I can't believe the information that you've been able to locate. Where did you find the account from Jack Millar ? Is he still alive ?

It would seem that Steele was killed on 13th May and he is buried at Leuven. There are only three Lincolns in the cemetery.

CWGC :: Casualty Details

There is no mention of a Military Medal on the CWGC site. That may be one for Drew to look at.

It certainly looks from the account as if Joseph Fail was still with the Lincolns when he died which perhaps indicates that during the massive withdrawal, not all units followed one line on a map. Congestion could have meant that they were spread across quite a broad swathe of country.

 

Nothing listed online at Kew ref Steele and a MM.

I don't have a book on MM's but there is one out of print that I believe lists all MM's earned since WW1. Sadly I don't know anyone who has a copy.

Sorry
Andy

 

Anyone an idea or this link will lead to new information?

Thanks for the reply

Peter

Military Genealogy :: Army Roll Of Honour: Search Results

 

London Gazette
Date: 6 November 1936 Issue number: 34338 Page number: 7124 The Military Medal

No. 546274 Private Richard Steele, 2nd
Battalion The Lincolnshire Regiment.
Viewing Page 7124 of Issue 34338

No details of the action but there is also another Military Medal to the Lincolns listed in this issue
No. 4799509 Lance-Corporal William Marriott
Green, 2nd Battalion The Lincolnshire
Regiment.
and a DCM.
No. 5044848 Corporal Joseph Wilkes, late 2nd
Battalion The Lincolnshire Regiment. (KIA 1936) more info here
Cpl J Wilkes 2nd Batt. Lincolnshire Regt.

 

Steele's MM. The Lincolnshire's history implies he died on 14 May, not 13 May on CWGC.

That Millar account was a good find!

2 RUR (also 9 Bde with 2 Lincoln):
... was directed to Leeuwergem, nine miles away and four miles south of Alost...
I don't know where the old roads ran, but could they have gone Anderlecht-Ninove then turned north? That would have put the brigade in roughly the right area?

 

I don't know where the old roads ran, but could they have gone Anderlecht-Ninove then turned north? That would have put the brigade in roughly the right area?

The road Anderlecht-Ninove (Brussels-Renoux) we are sure for 2nd lincolns, where they passed the Dender is not sure, but if went to Ninove Denderbrug, then it would have been north to Welle/Denderhoutem, then West to Heldergem, Borsbeke , Poeldries(Chateau Bossuit).

Leeuwergem is between Heldergem/Borsbeke so quite possible.

 

Peter
If you get time why not sit down and write up your journey with your initial request through to the conclusion, then you can keep it as part of your history and if you want to share it with the good members of the forum.
congratulations on a job well done.

 

Peter
If you get time why not sit down and write up your journey with your initial request through to the conclusion, then you can keep it as part of your history and if you want to share it with the good members of the forum.
congratulations on a job well done.

We sure will, the first thing we gonna start is the facebook page, starting in september.
But we gonna detail some more stuff, we've got some interesting links in progress, we hope that those also pay off.

The Richard Steel and Jack Millar tip must have more information, we do our best to search for the links with Joseph Fail.

The topic here on ww2talk.com is our main information board, everything witch we got confirmed, we post here also as appreciation for everybody's effort to help us in the search.

Regards

Peter

 

Very hard time finding something about Richard Steele and Jack Millar ...

I've found a book : The Poachers : history of 2nd lincolnshire regiment. Delivery next week!

Greetz

Peter

 

Steele's citation is (should) be in here: CO 448/46/19 Recommendations for award and gallantry during the Palestine Emergency, 1936

Don't rush off and order a copy, it's quite possible someone here can be persuaded to look it up. I'd like to get there sometime...

Interesting to note that Templer (Malayan Emergency) got a DSO there.