With the ad hoc way the Great War names were added, who gave the pemission for those who fell in WW2. Are they more accurate than WW1? As I research them in my area I find them harder to give a fuller picture, unless I can find a willing relative. John
Addition of World War II dead to existing memorials also seems to have been done in an ad hoc fashion. In the nearby village of Walshaw, Bury, they have just added the Second World War names as the result of a local charitable initaitive. I was unfortunately unable to attend the unveiling due to family bereavement.
So it would appear then that the same applied for both World Wars I do have a photo of the Memorial in Morecambe and that does also include the name(s) of those who fell in Korea. John
I am not so sure it was a matter of "permission" in either World War; most memorials were compiled using local knowledge and asking local people if they had someone who had died... in most cases they relied on their knowledge of what units etc their next of kin was in, which is why there are many mistakes for both conflicts. People also began to move around a lot more after WW2, especially in the South East which had an influx of people from bombed out London; my own home town of Crawley in Sussex is a classic example. When a character of a town/village changes, it seems that there might be less of a desire to commemorate the dead... in Bognor Regis, where I once lived, the WW2 names were only added in the 1980s because people were too "weary" after WW2 to do it (Bognor was bombed as well). So, lots of complicated and varying reasons, I suspect, for why men are or are not commemorated on these monuments.
Originally posted by john w. I do have a photo of the Memorial in Morecambe and that does also include the name(s) of those who fell in Korea. John [post=28780]Quoted post[/post] The memorial in Southport includes Korean dead, and also at least one member of the REME who was killed in Cyprus. This is as well as the WW2 Poles that I have mentioned in another post. Last time I was in Southport I stumbled across a small memorial to local Jews, erected by AJEX, and another to the VCs that are associated with the town: W E Heaton, H Ackroyd, G Masters, A H L Richardson and W A Sandys-Clarke. One village in Sussex - the name of which escapes me at the moment, although it is on the Downs behind Brighton - names a casualty of the Falklands War. IIRC this is not on a memorial but on the church lytch (spelling?) gate.
People also began to move around a lot more after WW2, especially in the South East which had an influx of people from bombed out London; my own home town of Crawley in Sussex is a classic example. When a character of a town/village changes, it seems that there might be less of a desire to commemorate the dead... Paul Do you remember when the names of the war dead were stolen from the gates of the Memorial Gardens? To me, that said a lot about the lack of continuity. Not sure if the plaques were recovered, or if they were melted down by the thieves. Soon after they were stolen there was an appeal in the "Crawley Observer" - looking for someone who actually knew all of the names! This says more about the lack of continuity!
This opens up a can of worms, as i can remember the fuss made because the local council refused to allow the name of a local squaddie who died in NI. On a lighter note, on top of the war memorial at newmanis Cross, there stands a Jock in "fsmo" and rifle on permanant stag. As a child if anything went missing it was always said that it could be found in his back pack! or else he took it!
Do you remember when the names of the war dead were stolen from the gates of the Memorial Gardens? To me, that said a lot about the lack of continuity. I don't remember that Tony; the plaques are still there and the originals, as they were cast with names raised. They must have recovered them, somehow. They were rennovated a couple of years ago.
Originally posted by Paul Reed@Oct 18 2004, 05:23 AM Do you remember when the names of the war dead were stolen from the gates of the Memorial Gardens? To me, that said a lot about the lack of continuity. I don't remember that Tony; the plaques are still there and the originals, as they were cast with names raised. They must have recovered them, somehow. They were rennovated a couple of years ago. [post=28799]Quoted post[/post] Paul It was a long time ago, in the early to mid 1970s. Before the County Mall was built that part of town was very quiet and isolated at night. After the last bus had gone and before the morning rush hour took people to the railway station, they probably had 4 or 5 hours to lever the plaques off of the wall and put them in the back of a van - the road went past the gates in those days - what is now the access walkway to the Mall. Pleased to hear that the plaques are the originals. Just after they were stolen the Crawley Observer/Borough Council were looking for the names of the dead, and photos of the plaques, in order to cast some more. They probably had 2 or 3 lines on page 27 when they found them!
The village of Cowie, in Stirlingshire, is unique in the area through having NEVER had a war memorial to the fallen of either war. The Miner's Welfare has a plaque from Lord Beaverbrook thanking the villagers for their contribution to the war effort (it was a mining village until the '80s), and the bowling club has a plaque commemorating the pilot of a Spitfire which crashed near the village, but no war memorial. A few years ago, a campaign to see about erecting something met unbelievable opposition from the community council, so nothing was done. Yet all the surrounding villages have a memorial.
Stirlingshire I find hard to believe, The Peoples Republic of South Lanarkshire - now there's a different area! Aye MalcolmII
Aye well, South Lanarkshire hasn't got the monopoly on Commissars these days, not since the '96 reorganisation. Wonder what the excuse in Cowie was in the twenties? I spent months scouring every public record I could find, including the churches, and couldn't find mention of anyone even suggesting building one. :angry:
The Imperial Museum has an ongoing project to log all the estimated 50,000 to 60,000 Memorials in Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to record all the names thereon. The last I heard (about a year ago) much information is now in their records and there is a possibility the data will be listed on a website at some future date. Anyone have any updated news?
They do the exact same thing in New Zealand...a huge World War I memorial, and chiseled at the bottom is the addition for the World War II casualties. In Christchurch, they chiselled the additional battles of World War II on panels on the Memorial Arch on Cashel Street, and then chiselled in three more on another panel for Malaya, Borneo, and Vietnam. The Americans have not done so. They built huge World War I memorials and simply left it at that. In recent years, they have begun building separate World War II, Korea, and Vietnam memorials. 9/11 memorials began almost right away.
Originally posted by Gerry Chester@Nov 7 2004, 11:30 PM The Imperial Museum has an ongoing project to log all the estimated 50,000 to 60,000 Memorials in Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to record all the names thereon. The last I heard (about a year ago) much information is now in their records and there is a possibility the data will be listed on a website at some future date. Anyone have any updated news? [post=29238]Quoted post[/post] You can email the IWM UK Memorial team and get a listing for the area. I got one for Comrie and Crieff for work I am doing at the moment. I was involved in a small way in collecting some information in Edinburgh area. See: http://collections.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.00g00c Aye MalcolmII
Originally posted by Gerry Chester@Nov 8 2004, 05:30 AM The Imperial Museum has an ongoing project to log all the estimated 50,000 to 60,000 Memorials in Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to record all the names thereon. Anyone have any updated news? [post=29238]Quoted post[/post] The I.W.M. does plan to put its inventory on-line, and include a searchable database of the names recorded. To see a similar, though much smaller, project in the Republic of Ireland, see: www.irishwarmemorials.ie In fact, there are a large number of WWII memorials and graves here. Some are for Allied servicemen who crashed or were washed up on the shores (and also some Germans), but also memorials to Irishmen who fought on the Allied side.
Originally posted by Paul Reed@Oct 17 2004, 03:45 PM So, lots of complicated and varying reasons, I suspect, for why men are or are not commemorated on these monuments. [post=28783]Quoted post[/post] One of which always amused me on one of the local memorials in Nelson, Lancashire. In the list of WW1 dead is a Private Fred Catlow MM. He actually died in the back of a taxi in 1955! His sister ,Elsie,(Medical Officer for the area) was apparantly quite a formidable woman and it seems that she may have insisted upon his inclusion on the memorial!!!!
Originally posted by Gerry Chester@Nov 8 2004, 05:30 AM The Imperial Museum has an ongoing project to log all the estimated 50,000 to 60,000 Memorials in Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to record all the names thereon. Anyone have any updated news? [post=29238]Quoted post[/post] The latest news is that Jane Furlong, who is Director of this project, is planning to put it on the web in the near future (there may be 75,000 memorials in all). She also plans to add up to 3,500,000 names as well. Belville