Valentine MkXI

For the Crossing of the Rhine and the last few weeks of the campaign a Corps AT Regiment had Achilles SP Batteries of four troops each of four guns. Unfortunately the photograph in post 9 did not have a precise date. Does this look like the Rhine area in March/April 1945?

There were two SP batteries and two towed batteries. The towed batteries also had four troops of 17pdr guns in March 1945. The towed batteries started off with Crusader gun tractors but by March 1945 they were replaced with Quads, which variant is not clear.

30/58 will be a movement serial. For crossing the Rhine, or for any large scale move, there were carefully constructed movement tables giving the order of march. Each group of vehicles was given a serial and Movement Control and Provosts had lists of all serials so they could keep things moving correctly.

Mike

 

Hi Mike

Rhine/ I don't know. But based on the clothing I would say possibly yes for March/April 45. One guy is wearing a Pixie Suit, a couple leather jerkins, indicators of cooler weather.

Smudge

 

Tank Crew Oversuit

Issue of those suits commenced in September - November 44, and since many units started receiving SP Valentines in around Sept it could well be March/April 45.

 

Having done a bit of checking, I think you'll find that a LAA troop (40mm) had 6 guns in a 18 gun bty in a three bty regt.

This makes tactical sense because 6 would provide an effective defence of a VP, 3 guns would have been insufficnent and its difficult to judge what they would have been useful for. Perhaps you're getting confused with the very specialised circumstances of the Mulberry where AA elements were tailored to the task.

 

Mapshooter,

All you say is true of course. AA units are worth a whole new thread of their own. Perhaps one day. They are as complex and varied as anti tank units.

I think that it was common for the six gun troop to be subdivided into two three gun sub units and arranged in triangular patterns. (Of course apart from a straight line the triangle would be the only pattern possible.) In 21 Army Group searchlights were also organised into troops of six and commonly deployed in threes. As you rightly say there are many possibilities to suit different situations.

I speak only of 21 Army Group. I admit almost total ignorance of other theatres and little knowledge of Home Defence.

Mike

 

For defence of a fixed point, bridge, dump, HQ etc. the following deployment seems to have been standard. The six Bofors guns are arranged in two three gun units, one on either side of the defended point and on the most likely approaches. Each sub units three guns were arranged in a triangle with sides about 200 yards long. The apex of each triangle points towards the target. Whichever direction the attack comes from the three guns on the approach will fire at individual aircraft until they are overhead when they will select another incoming target. The guns of the second triangle will then fire on the enemy aircraft as they leave the target.

Where a line rather than a point is to be defended a series of interlocking triangles is used. Again each three guns fire at individual aircraft until they are overhead when the target is engaged by the next sub unit of three.

Obviously many variations are possible but the arrangement seems to have been widespread if not general.

Mike

 

Hi Derek

On RA1939-45 (smashing site by the way) it says 102 AT Regt RA used light blue instead of the red on their Tac signs. http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/atk/page59.html was this cast in stone, on all vehicles?

I'm thinking in relationship to the late war and use of the MkXI OP tank of course. I think I've found a photo of the
15 (Scottish) Infantry Division using this Mk

Cheers

Smudge

 

The answer to the some of the questions raised about the establishment and equipment of Anti Tank Regiments lies in the conferences post D Day and the "lessons learned" from Normandy.in RA Notes and the minutes of various conferences at HQ 21 AG. I haventl re-read these but from memory the issues are as follows:-

The three gun troop is due to the decision to release as many ATk gunners as possible to become infantrymen. Regardless of previous tactical principles, by reducing the number of guns in a troop they can still have the same number of troops and on paper at least be tasked the same as before. There are comments in one of the war diaries .(102nd?) critical of this thinking.

The Archer was preferred over the Achillies for two reasons. 1) It was a British chassis and not subject to American constraints on lease lend kit, durign or after the War. 2) The Archer was much less like a tank than the Achillies, and Atk Gunners would be forced to fight according to RA practice and tnot be tempted to becoming ersatz tankies, During the Normandy campaign, some unit asked for the M10 to have better overhead armour and a machine gun that could be used from under armour. This attracted the response.that the units were really asking for Sherman Fireflies, which would have all sorts of implications.

PS One of the reasons that the 17 pdr Achillies was only available in small numbers before D Day was because of an industrial dispute, which limited the number of M10s which could be up gunned. Ideally, 2nd Army should have started Op Overlord with 17 pdr and no 76mm gunned SP anti tank guns.

.

 

Fascinating, any more details on the industrial dispute? Never come across that before.

 

Source is a note on 7th May 1944 in the unpublished HQ RA 2 Army planning diary and held within H J Parham's papers.

 

Hi Sheldrake, with regards to this, I'm looking at a document detailing the proposal to reorganize the AT Regiments and it mentions two organizations(?) - "A.A.I." and "TROOPERS". Do you know what those were?

 

The references to TROOPERS that I've seen have related to war establishments. That makes sense in this context as they are proposing revisions to WEs.

 

This document is HQ Allied forces Italy - as you can see from the distribution to V, X, XIII, 1st Canadian and Polish Corps. It reflects the desire across all theatres to balance forces against threat/requirement - which in 1944 meant more infantry.. Thinning out the Corps anti tank regiments in Italy on 7th June might make sense, but was premature in NW Europe

 

Whoops. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

I think that TROOPERS refers to The War Office. Sometimes it is followed by a suffix, e.g. TROOPERS DLM refers to the Director of Liaison and Munitions, The War Office, I believe.

AAI ≡ Allied Armies in Italy.

Chris, it would be nice to see the entire document if that’s possible together with its source & reference.

 

Hi Richelieu,

Thanks! I was wondering if the I might be Italy.

I'll try to post it later on today (might be tomorrow UK time).

 

Whoops, I'm reminded that I never posted this and will have to dig it up.

 

Tank Tracks by Peter Beale (9 RTR not Eastenders) has 52 Div FOOs using Valentines during Op Veritable but maybe a misidentification of a 214 AT tp ldr / BC. IWM has this pic of a Valentine in southern Goch 21Feb, so likely 51 Div.

 

A Valentine of 102nd A/T Regiment

 

Hi AB64,

I'd be interested if you have any more details about your photo. Yes, the Valentine is a fine example and pertinent to this thread, but I'm especially interested to see thatthere is what appears to be an Austin K5 3-tonner behind it. It's just a shame that the photographer didn't wait a second or two to give us a better view of it. The war diary for 102 A Tk Regt gives tantalising hints about what type of 3 tonners they took to Normandy, but I don't think it actually states what they are.

I don't suppose you've got more photos that show any more of the regiments 'B' vehicles?

Regards

Tom