Hopefully you've already found this http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/240138/details/VICKERS+WELLINGTON+Z1172/ Are there any records that survive for any other of the crew, perhaps in Poland, or where did they come from, US/Can too? Is it likely that they would have been trained in Canada or the UK? Would tracing the pilot details be of any help as possibly the crew would have formed up together at some earlier time..? They would have to have had the usual basic training, type familiarisation, OTU trail "somewhere".... This could be a way for the two branches of the family to co operate and make something more than the parts that they know of.
Hello Kevin, I found that link just this morning and I am following it up now. I like your idea of getting the two halves of the family to co-operate on this and I will try to do that - as far as the language barrier permits. Regards Neville
Curses :redface: I forgot having also seen "357 Walnut St" here - Person Details for Paul Gramiak, "United States World War II Draft Registration Cards, 1942" — FamilySearch.org. Whilst not solid proof, it certainly helps dispell my Victor/Charles doubt ! And not too surprisingly, BTW, here's confirmation Victor was AKA Vic - Get One A/C Group. ~80% down page: Moral: Keep reviewing your old evidence in light of new, Steve
Amazing stuff! Nice detail too. Something to keep in mind whilst I am doing the rest of the research Regards Neville
The American photographer has sent me a copy of the headstone. As ever, it appears to have changed! It looks to be much newer than the 1950 military one - or perhaps it has just been refurbished - probably to add the names of the father and mother who died in 1958 and 1995 respectively.
The headstone shows that a lot of Red Golin's work was right on the mark! Thanks Steve. My thanks also to Martha Hendriksen who was so helpful and who actually took the photograph.
No, apart from being granite, that's not the same at all - the military one was, for a start, flat and not vertical if you recall the form. Here's a list of current choices I very much doubt have significantly changed ... Types of Headstones, Markers and Medallions Available - National Cemetery Administration... and showing both types as very different in form: << flat granite & upright marble >>Maybe the military slab is still there - say at the foot of the grave after the fashion of other dual-memorial-stone graves I've seen. Lovely stone, all the same, and great to see it Steve
Hello Steve, The stone is not there and the photographer believes it is in storage but she has no idea where. No matter, as you say, it's a lovely stone and it brings most of the family together (the daughter is elsewhere in the cemetery). The names have been anglicised but at least he is back to Gregory not George. With a stone like that, there is no point in me asking the CWGC to place a stone there or to tend the grave as it is obviously cared for. Now, if I can bring the Polish and American branches of the family together ............! Regards Neville
Back to a 'brain dump' post I was editing when the headstone photo came through, I was wrong to suspect the adoption of ungiven pseudonyms is/was a Catholic thing since their traditions, during our time frame at least, turn out to fall entirely within my range of experience & expectation. Quick research show & tell FWIW as possibly applicable to other 304 Sqn research: NB: Paul immigrated, via Austria, from Brzexany/Brzezany in formerly-Prussian Congress Poland - so Germanic tradition likely to apply False start searching FamilySearch's Family History Research Wiki for 'Catholic "naming patterns"' Thus tried Cyndi's List - Names ... First good lead - Beyond the Index-Michael John Neill-A Rose by Any Other Name Best reference - Naming Customs (found in Poland) ... [*]... referring back, there, to a previously-visited page that had thus egged me on: [*]So what I recalled, back in post 17, as "high/church" & "everyday" = 'spiritual' & 'secular/calling' - but both names given and, though alternately used at different times, not just 'plucked from the air' ... unless, as may be anachronistically inferred from the "Note:" above, George & Vic each really had 3 given names not all officially registered (here reading 'civil' for what it refers to as 'church' records) [*]Or it may yet be some habitually-self-defensive form of obfuscation ! [*]Finally, 2 further waypoints worth mentioning in passing: * Poland Genealogy | Learn | FamilySearch.org * Personal name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Still, in presumably erecting the headstone we now see in or shortly after 1995, the family seem to have cast their vote for Gregory rather than George and so, unless those back in Poland show signs of disagreement, it seems pragmatic just to thus 'go with the flow'. Steve Edit: Corrected date typo
This thread has highlighted for me how conditioned I am by the practices of CWGC. Somehow a small reference on a family stone with no indication of unit, place of loss etc. seems far less fitting as a war grave than the Commonwealth practice of individual headstones with the wonderfully carved service or regimental insignia.
I have to agree with you there, Rich. The CWGC does things with a bit more style - but my main concern was that he had been re-buried and his grave might not be properly marked or tended. As you can see, the gravestone is immaculate and it is in a nicely tended plot. He will not be forgotten as I am researching his career and I will put him on my memorial site at the end of the research. Wojciech Zmyslony will be doing the same for him in Poland and there are other plans afoot which will be revealed in due course.
HI, The same person has posted the images on findagrave, was just about to post it on here. Cheers Alistair
Hello Alistair, I had made contact with Martha about photographing the grave and she told me she had been approached by two other people (via findagrave) so I presume you were one of them! Regards Neville
Hello Steve, You have certainly done some research on naming conventions! I agree with you that it is best to just go with the flow. However, I will make it clear to both sides that the names and spellings I have used are taken from military records to avoid confusion for other researchers and to make my work checkable. Regards Neville
Hello Steve, I forgot to mention that in the book "Pamieci Lotnikow Polskich" by Jerzy Pawlak, George/Gregory is also listed as Grzegorz Piotr Gramiak and that could be the accepted and conventional spelling in all official PAF/RAF records. Viktor is not mentioned because he fought only in the USAAF.
No biggie but I'm mildly curious, if Ms Hendriksen just took your photo 'to order', then why is the fuller/paler version above just posted on Find A Grave timed at 16:03 on 10 July 2014 ? And if thus prepared to hoodwink you 3 guys, considering she'd actually have to go out to snap it, can you be so very sure she's right about the 1950 marker's absence ? As for research, Neville, my reward is teaching myself something potentially-useful for a deserving cause - just don't expect me to go & eyeball the only UK library copy of Jerzy's book at Oxford Uni ! :P Cheers, Steve
Hello Steve, I contacted her direct; two others contacted her through find a grave. She emailed me and asked if there was some kind of conspiracy because she had three contacts in one day!!! I cut the original down to cut out extraneous detail when I place it on my blog and I used an automatic exposure correction tool to correct what I considered to be under exposure. She is not a professional photographer; she just has an interest in headstones. The net result was that I got my copy a few hours earlier than the others - but it is the same photo. You just have to learn how to beat the opposition! She actually mentioned to me that the original stone was not there - I didn't ask. Finally, why go all the way to Oxford University to see a copy of the book when you could go even further, to Durham! Not the University but my personal desk! A few months ago I wrote a biography of another Polish airman and, as a thank you, his sons sent me their father's copy. It was no use to them as they could neither read nor write Polish and didn't have the interest - except in their father's story. It is quite heavily annotated (in English, which is helpful) and very useful. I get the gist of its text via Google translate! Regards Neville
Oh I fully realised (and that was half the point Neville) that yours was a doctored version of the other - background details lining up far too perfectly around the edges of the stone for there to be much doubt about that - but I was mainly highlighting the discrepency between the effort she'd apparently led you to expect she was making on your behalf ("she will be taking a photograph in the next week or so" - post 33) against the photo's metadata seeming to prove she had it all along (like the one she took of Mary's headstone 25m later and unaccountably posted on Victor's page). FWIW, I prefer her looser crop but not the overexposure which you've rightly seen fit to correct - oh, just noticed youve cropped off the "66 A 205" row ID from the LH end of the plinth. But, on second thoughts, perhaps she'd just had the good sense to speculatively take pictures of nearby gravestones, whilst fulfilling another request, and had let such a FAG-posting backlog build up as to forget already having had what you wanted when you first got in touch ... There you go - a nicely innocent theory to counter my habit of inspecting gift horses' mouths (occupational hazard of previous life as a wage-slave) ! As for the book reference, I was only using it as a topical device to demonstrate a hopefully-reasonable limitation of my voluntary help. I think, being foreign, that's the first book I've looked up on WorldCat not listing the usual British Library backstop copy having the merit of falling within my territorial county - no online bookshops either, for that matter, but I've seen that limitation before. Hmm, just wondering why we've not yet heard more from Simon, reminds me to log the gist of my Carleton Cemetery informant's reply, today, to my having copied her into this thread late on Friday ... ... incidentally offering to forward any further (guest-inaccessible) attachments by request. Steve
Hello Steve, On having a closer look, I think you are right about the looser crop and I am going to revert to that one but with the exposure corrected. I am still trying to contact family in the area there are at least five people named Gramiak in the New York/New Jersey area and presumably one of them paid for Mary's funeral and headstone as she was the last to die. Perhaps they will know the fate of the military headstone. I am happy enough with the photo I have received; the grave is clearly well tended and it is marked with a nice stone. In addition, I did not pay for it. I may find more about the military headstone when I make contact with the family. Regards Neville
Hi Neville, I visited Layton Cemetery yesterday. two very helpful guys took me out to the Polish section. I have attached a photo. The cemetery is not maintained except for this section which is maintained by the CWGC. There are 24 Headstones and a central memorial - see photo. The second photo shows an area at the back on the right hand side, large enough for two graves, where the grass is cut but there are no headstones. The grass is not level in this area. I have photographed all 24 Polish style headstones and the memorial. I could not get to Carleton yesterday, running a family taxi service - don't ask! I went today and met your contact Gale who showed me the original entry - 3rd photo. Note it says no memorial. Neither cemetery has any records of an exhumation. I also checked out the RC Polish section at Carleton. There is a central memorial with 15 names on. All the gravestones are individual and mainly local Polish family names. I might have missed this in the thread but they would have needed the Next of Kin's permission to move Gregory to the US. Do you have all the info you need from this end or do you want me to follow this up with the local Coroner's Office? His Next of Kin will also be shown on Gregory's RAF record, you might try asking the Air Attache at the Polish Embassy in London. The RAF may well have sent the records back to Poland at some stage and they may be available. Simon
