Three Pieces of Black Ribbon Worn (by Royal Welch Fusiliers)...

on the back of the neck by certain British Troops.

Anyone know what this means etc?

I've never heard of it before and I've seen it mentioned several times now in a I Corps intelligence file. The context of it being mentioned is a French woman in Douai has become a suspect of the FSP after asking troops on a few different occasions what it means amongst other questions.

 

Drew - sometimes the three battalions of an Infantry brigade would have stripes somewhere - usually on their tin toppee's to indiate that he was in first - second or third battalion with different colours for each one .....friendly fire etc -- didn't always work but it helped to tell if one was too far right or left during an advance - made sense !
Chers

 

Not sure if it what you are referring, but the Royal Welch Fusiliers wear a 'flash' at the back of their uniform. I believe that it has something to do with the regiment being overseas when the wearing of pigtails was rescinded.

Roxy

 

I'll post the page. I read it as black ribbons (I assumed loose hanging down) but I guess its open to interpretation. I keep thinking funeral/mourning for obvious reasons.

WO 167/125

 

Roxy is correct. It is the "flash" worn by members of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. The were stationed o'seas when the order which recinded powdered hair was promulgated and the three ribbons were worn to secure the queue bag (to keep the powder and grease of the tunic.) First worn by all officers and now by all members of the regiment.
tbar

 

Cheers all,

It does fit as they were part of 2 Div, which were in i Corps. Anyone got a picture of these ribbons being worn?

Regards
Andy

 

Drew -
I am qute convinced that both Roxy and Tbar are correct in their explanations of the three black stripes on the Welch Regt collars - however that was in the distant past while I was referring to the more recent WW2 -

if we were to look at the make up of the 71st bde of the 53rd Division we would find that it comprised the 1st Batt East Lancs - 1st Batt Ox and Bucks - 1st Batt H.L.I as senior bde in that Welsh Division -and still was until that is the 26th August 1944 when the East Lancs transferred to the 158th Bde to replace the 4th Batt Welch Fus and they in turn were transferred to 71st bde.

Now a photograph of members of both regiments held by the IWM under the Welch Regt shows very clearly that the East Lancs member shows a single red stripe under the 53rd Div sign indicating their seniority in whatever bde - it is not known - and the Welch Regt show two red stripes in the same position - again without indicating which bde it was number two regiment.

AS I recall querying these stripes of an infantryman in Italy he then indicated that theirs were worn on the battle bowler to prevent their comrades in the bde from shooting them in error - which made a great deal of sense to me at the time ... and still does as there weren't too many of the enemy or our own wearing pigtails !
Cheers

 

Cheers Owen....Never seen or heard of that before. Quite bizarre.

I'll amend the title too.

Thanks again everyone

 

Everyone is right thus far and everyone is a little wrong as well!

There is contradictory evidence regarding the Flash (the story of its inception is true), and the current descendants of the RWF still wear it to this day.

In the Second World War it was still a symbol of intense unit pride, (and this is where some sources conflict slightly.)

4th Bn RWF - 53rd Welsh

You can clearly see Shipley wearing the Flash as late on his BD as 1943. In France, 1939-40, British high command was very worried about having identification easily made of RWF troops in the line by their Flash. As a result it was restricted just to officers allowed to wear it. There ARE photos of the RWF in France 1940s digging trenches and the ORs clearly are not wearing it, whilst the Officers are (ORs wear 3 strips, Officers wear 5). The OR's were 7" long, with the Officers being 9" long...

Unfortunately these photos are on the IWM website and people can't spell 'Welsh' or 'Welch' so I forget what other spelling they are under.

So in France 1940... the Flash was worn, by Officers but not by ORs.

By 1944 they decided to remove it completely (some sources - not many - slightly disagree on this) however as a compromise the RWF Battalions take the Flash packed in crates with them to France which go wherever the Battalions go (somewhat like the Sospan Fach...) to be worn the minute hostilities cease! And this ultimately did happen!

There are rumours I've heard from French historians of helmets with 'Dragons' (clearly not Wyverns from my questions) which sound like the RWF Dragon (from the Maizet/Evrecy area) given to local school kids as mementos, and the 53rd Divisional symbol was painted on by most. But the Flash was never painted on or worn 1944-45 in combat.

So I hope that answers the original question clearly that in 1940 there were RWF chappies (Officers) running around wearing 5 strips of cloth on their back!

Drew -
I am qute convinced that both Roxy and Tbar are correct in their explanations of the three black stripes on the Welch Regt collars - however that was in the distant past while I was referring to the more recent WW2 -

if we were to look at the make up of the 71st bde of the 53rd Division we would find that it comprised the 1st Batt East Lancs - 1st Batt Ox and Bucks - 1st Batt H.L.I as senior bde in that Welsh Division -and still was until that is the 26th August 1944 when the East Lancs transferred to the 158th Bde to replace the 4th Batt Welch Fus and they in turn were transferred to 71st bde.

Now a photograph of members of both regiments held by the IWM under the Welch Regt shows very clearly that the East Lancs member shows a single red stripe under the 53rd Div sign indicating their seniority in whatever bde - it is not known - and the Welch Regt show two red stripes in the same position - again without indicating which bde it was number two regiment.

AS I recall querying these stripes of an infantryman in Italy he then indicated that theirs were worn on the battle bowler to prevent their comrades in the bde from shooting them in error - which made a great deal of sense to me at the time ... and still does as there weren't too many of the enemy or our own wearing pigtails !
Cheers

 

Check the RWF website.
Royal Welch Fusiliers Museum situated within the Caernarfon Castle, North Wales.
even has them on left hand side under contents listing





Q: What is "The Flash"?
A: It is the name given to the 5 black ribbons worn on the back of the collar. They are a link with the days when soldiers wore pigtails.

These were powdered, greased and, in order to protect the red coatee, enclosed in what was known as a queue bag.

In July 1808 hair was ordered to be cut close to the neck and the queue was abolished. At the time the 1st Battalion was in Canada. The officers however decided to retain the ribbons with which the queue had been tied.

Using an old slang term for a wig these were known as the 'Flash'.

In 1834, an inspecting General noted "the superfluous decoration on the collar of the coat" and ordered the removal of the Flash.


When King William IV was told what had happened, the Colonel of the Regiment received a letter from the Horse Guards stating that His Majesty had been pleased to approve the Flash "as a peculiarity whereby to mark the dress of that distinguished Regiment."

Until 1900 it was worn only by Sergeants and Officers

Everyone is right thus far and everyone is a little wrong as well!

There is contradictory evidence regarding the Flash (the story of its inception is true), and the current descendants of the RWF still wear it to this day.

In the Second World War it was still a symbol of intense unit pride, (and this is where some sources conflict slightly.)

4th Bn RWF - 53rd Welsh

You can clearly see Shipley wearing the Flash as late on his BD as 1943. In France, 1939-40, British high command was very worried about having identification easily made of RWF troops in the line by their Flash. As a result it was restricted just to officers allowed to wear it. There ARE photos of the RWF in France 1940s digging trenches and the ORs clearly are not wearing it, whilst the Officers are (ORs wear 3 strips, Officers wear 5). The OR's were 7" long, with the Officers being 9" long...

Unfortunately these photos are on the IWM website and people can't spell 'Welsh' or 'Welch' so I forget what other spelling they are under.

So in France 1940... the Flash was worn, by Officers but not by ORs.

By 1944 they decided to remove it completely (some sources - not many - slightly disagree on this) however as a compromise the RWF Battalions take the Flash packed in crates with them to France which go wherever the Battalions go (somewhat like the Sospan Fach...) to be worn the minute hostilities cease! And this ultimately did happen!

There are rumours I've heard from French historians of helmets with 'Dragons' (clearly not Wyverns from my questions) which sound like the RWF Dragon (from the Maizet/Evrecy area) given to local school kids as mementos, and the 53rd Divisional symbol was painted on by most. But the Flash was never painted on or worn 1944-45 in combat.

So I hope that answers the original question clearly that in 1940 there were RWF chappies (Officers) running around wearing 5 strips of cloth on their back!
:yeah: This was something that caught my attention at the RWF Museum at Carnarvon the other day while on hols...

 

I just happen to have a book on the subject and have scanned the relevent pages from the section, Customs and Traditions of the Regiment.

It reinforces what has been said previously with a little more.

Regards
Tom

 

I believe that the photo which Swiper is referring to is one that I've posted on another forum some time ago so I'll put it here as well.




The location is on the Dyle line, on the road between Ottenburg and Wavre. I had a go at a 'then and now' but had to do it from memory. There is really only one place along the road which gives the same high view point from the opposite bank. Needless to say, I 'field-walked' but found nothing.

 

Just an update. After photos from the SWB Museum, it turns out... some high ranking RWF officers did wear the Flash on the front (usually Lt-Col sorta chaps) - in 44-45.

So the myth it never happened is out of the window in the late war, amazing what a few photos can show you!

 

I've had a 1900's RWF officers dress blues uniform hanging in the wardrobe for many years and always wondered what the tassles at the back meant!
thanks all

 

Royal Welch Fusiliers in WW2 wore the flash, 5 pieces of black ribbon attached to the back of the No1. BD collar, No2. BD did not have it. The single, 'Thin Red Line', worn on each upper arm denoted infantry. Other branches of the British Army generally consisted of two different colours making up the line.

 

Abolition of the Queue (pigtail) 1808, The Regiment along with all others was ordered to remove the queue and the flash (queue bag) a device to protect the coat from a greased pigtail. The battalion of Royal Welch stationed in Canada ignored the order. In 1834 a General Officer again ordered the removal, they petitioned the King who ordered that this fine regiment can use the 'flash'. A regiment with a touch of individuality, when offered battle honours for the American campaign, they declined, 'Fighting an English gentleman (Washington) fighting Englishmen against a Teutonic King! see below:


http://archive.org/stream/remarksofbrigadi00rich#page/n0/mode/2up